Daiwa magnetic seal service

[t303]

From another thread:


Originally Posted by jgarner447:
"Hey Steve whats in your mag seal ?does it conform with daiwa's spec?"

I can't tell you

No, seriously, I CAN"T (not won't) tell you whether it conforms, because Daiwa will not sell you, me , or anyone the oil; and obviously will not tell you what is in it!


I have done my own R&D and have a substitute. I "think" -coz I can't prove it without the Daiwa oil specs- that it is a comparable (hopefully better) oil. I have had it out on test for a few months and results are good so far. Theoretically the oil I am using as the base for Unobtainoil should, according to specs, outlast the genuine oil. I can only say that based on observation of the magseal state on reels I have serviced. Obviously I will not know conclusively for several years, but I was given a Caldia 3000H only a couple of months old that was already showing slight degradation/evaporation of the base oil and clumping of the ferro particles, so interpret that as you wish.
Soonish I need to decide if there is any interest in retailing it to those who service their own reels. The problem is that it is (gram for gram) more expensive than gold and since you only use about 10-20uL (that's MICROlitres) per service, it would need to be packaged in miniscule amounts. I would need to know that there would be enough interest to get a substantial amount packaged to keep the price down. I have been quoted $10-15 to replenish the oil by Daiwa, so I would obviously be trying to keep the cost below that. I have been informed that Daiwa gets it in bottles of 600ml or so, but that would be rather expensive for Joe Average with a 'Tate or two.

Soooo:
It is at about the time that I need some idea of how many of you would be interested in acquiring some to DIY service. The response would obviously decide whether the production of Unobtainoil in usable/affordable quantity would be feasible. I suspect that to get the price to a reasonable level we would be talking quantities in the 500 or up to 1000 units at maybe 2-3 reel services per package.

If anyone is interested please PM me or email: reelcean-at-bigpond.com.

Meantime, if you need your reel serviced or the oil seal replaced, I can offer an alternative to the manufacturer service for those that so desire, carefully done by a Daiwa enthusiast. (I only own ABU and Daiwa reels )


cheers
Steve
ReelClean

[nagz]

Hi Steve

Just wondering if you are able to share to the masses the procedure used for applying said oil before people lash out for a bunch of it?

I've run into plenty of punters who don't even know where the oil is contained within a reel!!!

Servicing a reel is daunting enough for some without the addition of mag seal, let alone experimenting with a non-proven non-Daiwa version in their pride and joy.

I for one appreciate your efforts in the development of a version of oil, however, I would advise folks err on the side of caution given the only test of its effectiveness is time

If we could some how find a way to replicate the testing procedures that Daiwa Japan has utilised, then I'd be more than happy to give it a crack. I just can't see a factory full of highly educated Japanese engineers and technicians not using severely more advanced testing procedures prior to signing off on the material in their reels, not to mention nasa, the original creators

As someone who has serviced more reels than I can comprehend, I have to concede that I personally, would leave the mag seal side of the game to daiwa, especially as it's only a couple weeks in the post and a bit of $$ for peace of mind and confidence in the fact that if they stuff up and salt water gets inside, they are liable to correct any damages

Just my two cents

Like I said, I like where you're headed. If I was a bit more astute I'd probably try find a work around as well.

My crude mix of olive oil and cat tears failed miserably lol

[t303]

Originally Posted by nagz

Hi Steve

Just wondering if you are able to share to the masses the procedure used for applying said oil before people lash out for a bunch of it?

I've run into plenty of punters who don't even know where the oil is contained within a reel!!!

Servicing a reel is daunting enough for some without the addition of mag seal, let alone experimenting with a non-proven non-Daiwa version in their pride and joy.

I for one appreciate your efforts in the development of a version of oil, however, I would advise folks err on the side of caution given the only test of its effectiveness is time

If we could some how find a way to replicate the testing procedures that Daiwa Japan has utilised, then I'd be more than happy to give it a crack. I just can't see a factory full of highly educated Japanese engineers and technicians not using severely more advanced testing procedures prior to signing off on the material in their reels, not to mention nasa, the original creators

As someone who has serviced more reels than I can comprehend, I have to concede that I personally, would leave the mag seal side of the game to daiwa, especially as it's only a couple weeks in the post and a bit of $$ for peace of mind and confidence in the fact that if they stuff up and salt water gets inside, they are liable to correct any damages

Just my two cents

Like I said, I like where you're headed. If I was a bit more astute I'd probably try find a work around as well.

My crude mix of olive oil and cat tears failed miserably lol

G'day Nagz

No way we can spend a million bucks on testing and research like Daiwa, but I don't believe you need to, after all it's actually not cutting edge technology, it's been around for decades and is used widely in industry. It's not Rocket Surgery! (Oh wait, apparently it was, in the sixties/seventies ).

I have no qualms with anyone who wants to send their reel to Daiwa, but to give you some idea of where I come from, I am more than half way to dead and none of my motorized toys (or reels for that matter) have ever graced a workshop. I just don't believe that ANYONE takes the same care and attention to maintenance and repair that I do, and I believe there are many out there that feel just as strongly about their fishing reels. That is why when I was refused supply of the magnetic oil I took it upon myself to source an alternative. I actually have enough to keep me going for quite a while, offer the replenish service and (depending on the interest) maybe offer it to others of like mind. As an aside, my opinion is that by not allowing the great unwashed access to the magnetic oil, it could be construed as restraint of trade. Imagine if Toyota refused to supply workshops any parts or fluids for customer's cars. In fact, I think in the USA if a manufacturer specifies that ONLY a particular product can be used in their gear then that product must be supplied FREE to the consumer (by law)!

You have done enough reels to know that the Magseal is only one path for water to find it's way in, and the most common bearings we replace are the LRB and sideplate bearings. Only rarely do I have to replace AR or pinion bearings. Of course, if a reel gets dunked then Magseal ain't gonna save ya , and I'll bet Daiwa ain't gonna warrant ya .

The actual process to replenish is a doddle. You simply have to introduce the oil into the airgap. The hardest part is to keep the quantity down to minute amounts (less than a drop), we are talking the smallest orifice you can imagine (think smallest bore hypodermic). Remember the liquid metal guy in Terminator? That's how the oil reacts, it just seamlessly and smoothly fills the bearing gap. I have detailed in another thread how to remove the bearing plate/oil/AR sleeve as a unit, so servicing is often possible without even disturbing the magseal. If anyone needs a "blow by blow" let me know and I'll see if I can put up a video. I have just bought a s/hand '10 Tate that will (on past experience) need the magseal condition checked.

cheers
Steve
ReelClean

[Partizan Fk]

I think a video would help mate so people will understand what is involved.
I think then you can get more poeple interested.I didnt know Daiwa charged $15 for the mag oil service.
Anyhow will await your vid or blow by blow pics

[Partizan Fk]

This oil you use.It has been tested and performs fine.Is it safe for the reel if it leaks or anything.Dont forget your putting your name against this thing.If it buggers a persons reel due to an inferior product will you cover it???

[scott1987]

Personally I'll keep using daiwa if I need my mag seal reels serviced. Wouldn't trust someone who wasn't a part of the process designing the mag seal reels to service one. Even if he has service his own machinery his whole life

[jgarner447]

Why would anyone use a non approved liquid to put in their reel when daiwa only charge $15 ??? thats a HUGE risk to only save a few $$$

[Partizan Fk]

Its not that.We change our drags to carbon drags and they are an improvement.If this guy can prove to me that this product is the same if not better then AMEN to him but if you cant then ill send my one mag sealed reel to Daiwa.

[purple5ive]

Where are you located. I'm happy to send you a caldia that you can use as a genuiea pig. It need a service atm.

[scott1987]

Surely if there was a better alternative daiwa would be using it by now though as there standard oil?

[JamesB]

This is an interesting topic - and so people don't go getting all upset here is a video about how the oil works in a daiwa reel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlOp5CbA6mw
It not a traditional lubricating oil so much as its a barrier oil that's sol purpose is to keep itself between magnetic surfaces creating a seal.

This type of oil has been around for a while now and consists of an oil base with metal or graphite particles.

As if Daiwa is going to release the specs of the oil. Its proprietary to their reels...
and really the only way to do a test is to see how the Daiwa oil reacts with magnets and gauge if the oil spoken about here reacts the same...

Don't over think this -- its just oil that has metallic properties..

Take t303 up on his offer of servicing or don't that's up to you send it to Daiwa but don't rip the guy for trying new things...

And one last thing.. How many people get their reels service by mates, or shops that don't send back to the manufacturer..do you know what they use, and if it conforms to that manufactures standards for the most part id say no.

[t303]

Gentlemen,
for those that only wish to post negatives, please go back to the other thread: http://www.breammaster.com/forum/sho...854#post647854
In fact, EVERYONE go have a read, it will save me posting it all again here!
Please read my LAST post on that thread regarding the subject. I have left that thread to follow it's original theme. I will not contribute any further to that thread if you would care to offer the same courtesy.

Some of you don't work for Daiwa service do you? (Just because you think I am paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me )
cheers
Steve

[Partizan Fk]

Hey i went through the posts and didnt see any Agro ,scepticism is a normal response and looking after our reels is our right also.
I asked the simple question of standing behind your product and service.
Asking questions is not being upset.
Ill check out the video when i get home thanks.
When you put up your hand saying you have a solution well done.
But dont get defensive when people question you.
As for poeple who service reels one being slazmo.The guy knows his stuff and explains things. Noone works for Daiwa or is after you.You havent discovred the fountain of youth.
The stuff probably has been used for a number of years.It took daiwa engineers to apply it to fishing reels.
By the way this isnt upset just a resonse.

[t303]

Originally Posted by Partizan Fk

Hey i went through the posts and didnt see any Agro ,scepticism is a normal response and looking after our reels is our right also.
I asked the simple question of standing behind your product and service.
Asking questions is not being upset.
Ill check out the video when i get home thanks.
When you put up your hand saying you have a solution well done.
But dont get defensive when people question you.
As for poeple who service reels one being slazmo.The guy knows his stuff and explains things. Noone works for Daiwa or is after you.You havent discovred the fountain of youth.
The stuff probably has been used for a number of years.It took daiwa engineers to apply it to fishing reels.
By the way this isnt upset just a resonse.

I'm not agro at all you guys, the post is more aimed at a couple of people who have continued on from over the other thread. But I am defensive and slightly annoyed given that I have explained at length about the product and people either can't, or choose not to, read and understand what I have put in print. Like I said over on the other posts, this is not snake oil, so please don't make those inferences. I am happy to use this on my babies, and those of others, and at the moment I can honestly say I have seen no deleterious effects from it on any reel. If I find something not right I will be ceasing it's use immediately and telling everyone else accordingly. Like I said, I'm not some spruiker on the late night shopping channel offering free steak knives trying to get rich. Frankly, I can just continue doing what I do and just look after myself, but I think there might be some others of like mind that would like an alternative to factory service.
I will try to get the video done, but the results are already on this forum if you search magnetic seal or magseal.

And to those who would like to participate in the testing, please email me: reelclean-at-bigpond.com because my PM box here has a limited capacity

more to come.

cheers
Steve

[t303]

Originally Posted by JamesB

This is an interesting topic - and so people don't go getting all upset here is a video about how the oil works in a daiwa reel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlOp5CbA6mw
It not a traditional lubricating oil so much as its a barrier oil that's sol purpose is to keep itself between magnetic surfaces creating a seal.

This type of oil has been around for a while now and consists of an oil base with metal or graphite particles.

As if Daiwa is going to release the specs of the oil. Its proprietary to their reels...
and really the only way to do a test is to see how the Daiwa oil reacts with magnets and gauge if the oil spoken about here reacts the same...

Don't over think this -- its just oil that has metallic properties..

Take t303 up on his offer of servicing or don't that's up to you send it to Daiwa but don't rip the guy for trying new things...

And one last thing.. How many people get their reels service by mates, or shops that don't send back to the manufacturer..do you know what they use, and if it conforms to that manufactures standards for the most part id say no.

James is on the money, this is NOT a lubricating oil, so it doesn't actually matter a toss whether it reduces wear or such. The only factor is longevity of the seal, so you need to consider
1) the base oil ie synthetic or hydrocarbon. I have chosen synthetic because hydrocarbon theoretically will evaporate faster over time
2) viscosity, but only in regards to can it maintain the seal under appropriate temps, humidity (and obviously water ingress) and shearing/rotational forces.
There are other considerations such as magnetic properties of the magnetite particles, but I don't believe them to be critical in this application.

So far, I have done all the above testing as thoroughly as possible in a practical way, given I don't have access to a squillion dollar lab. Personally, I suspect Daiwa handed the engineers at the mag oil lab a brief and they made a brew, or even gave them one of their many stock formulas (and there are many to choose from).
I will get up a video as soon as I can, but please be patient as I have a lot on at the moment with an impending visit to the ante-morgue.
cheers
Steve