Water filter

[Alex]

Hi guys,

I was in the boat store the other day, talking to the salesman about the new outboard. Amongst many things, he mentioned a water filter/water separator (the device you connect in line with the fuel line). He strongly recommended to use it to avoid the water getting into the outboard.
Questions: Is it recommended or something I can (my outboard) live without?
Is it for all outboards, ie 2-stroke and 4 stroke? Is it only for the boats equipped with the metal tanks or for both metal and plastic tanks?

All replies would be greatly appreciated
Cheers,
Alex

[FisherMatt]

Alex,

I'd recommend that u intstall an in-line fuel filter on your boat.
You will be surprised at the amount of crap it can take out of your fuel.

What sort of outboard are you running??
So far as i know, there is no difference between a 4 stroke filter and a 2 stroke filter, but there are guys on here who will be more up to date on that than me.

Bear in mind that some of the newer, larger outboards com with a fuel filter/water seperator onboard.

But for the price, id put one on. Could save u a lot of dramas down the track.

Hope this helps.

MATT

[Alex]

Thanks, Matt,

I am running 30 HP 2 stroke Suzuki with portable plastic 30 L tanks. I had a problem once when on the plane, full speed, the engine suddenly stopped. All our attempts to start failed and we had a goog paddling session with my son. Fortunately, we were not far from the ramp. Anyway, the mechanic at the ramp asked what happened, primed the fuel bulb few times real hard and the thing had started first pull! Imagine our frustration! Since then, I am trying to find what had happened (fuel, air in the fuel line, etc) and trying to eliminate the possibility of the same thing happening again. So I thought the water separator may help. I think my outboard has internal fuel filter, but hasn't in-line external filter (or water separator). Is it the one you are referring to?

Cheers,
Alex

I've had rusty colored water in mine too...and yet I have a poly tank...so it sure ain't comming from my tank.

However, having said that, I once ran about 6 bowsers for a large Govt dept for a lot of years - some were below ground steel tanks for avgas, some were overhead steel tanks for diesel, some underground steel tanks for normal petrol, and so on.

Most all of em get water in em at some time - moisture in the air gets sucked in during the warm daytime as fuel is pumped out thru the breathers, then it condensates, and settles to the bottom, and day after day this builds up over time.

Happens to below and above ground tanks.

The Bowser is supp[osed to have filters to filter out contaminants - BUt it's easey for the service station owner to forget to change them regular - they are afterall quite expensive.

When you dip these tanks (graduated dip stick) (to keep track of volumes when taking deliverys from tanker trucks) theres a green coloured "fuel proof grease" that you put on the end of the dip stick.

It contains 'condys chrystals' (potassium permangenate) which is unaffected by fuel.

In the presense of any water in the bottom of the tank, the condys crystals in the green grease on the bottom of the dip stick turns purple and you know you have water in your tank.

You then take steps to get rid of it. (Pump/drain it out).

In the case say of avgas the pilot should (apart from earthing his plane to the bowser before filling with avgas) pump a small sample into a glass jar to check for water, before filling the plane - he should also crack open the planes tanks drain DohDohDohDoh into a jar and check for water in the onboard tank.

(if you ever charter a plane and the pilot doesnt do this first, my advice is, don't get in!).

You know despite all the checks and so on - you'd be surprised how often bloody water just seems to "appear" in fuel from one cause or another, I've seen pilots pull water from plane tanks, I've seen em pull it from the bowser, I've seen it in above ground and below ground tanks despite the fact I test dipped for it and always pumped drained or otherwise drained / removed it every delivery etc...it STILL shows up.

The higher refined fuel like Avgas are worst for it since they shrink and expand more than say diesel, thus pulling more moist air into the tanks overnight thru the breather / vent tubes to condensate out, and foggy nights were the worst.

What the point of all that long story?

Despite how carefull you are as a boat owner, and the fact you have a poly tank etc, at some point - your GOING to get water in your fuel from your supplier. It's a given, no matter how conscientious he may be about the state of his tanks, it's inevitable that water gets into em...

Thus it's inevitable that at some point YOPU must recieve some.

For that reason - anyone who DOESN'T install a water separating fuel filter like Racor is GOING to have fuel supply problems at sea, I don't care who they are or how carefull - sooner or later they are going to get stuck at sea.

Yet - it's so easily remedied, with a simple racor filter immediately before your OB.

Thats the last place you can pull that water out BEFORE it stops your days fun on the water.

When you think how 'valuable' to the average working man a day or two away from the madding crowd in order to get his head straight after a weeks hard work is, and the 100% certainty that you WILL get water in your fuel at some point, it ALWAYS amazes me at how many people will baulk at the cost of installing that simple racor water separating fuel filter.

Anyone who installs the racor filter, immediately eliminates at least 75% of all their on water mechanical OB problems, and boating becomes fun again.

It's too easey and yet so few do it.

You know - lots of people at various times invite me out on many many boats, for a host of reasons, and over the years I've become a big fan of two way fishing trips - out AND back.

If theres no racor filter aboard, I don't get aboard - it's that simple...

If the skippers worthy of my trust in his skills and vessel - he already has the racor installed, if not he's a tyro (would be if he could be) - can talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

The Racor separates more than just water from fuel, it also separates skippers from just boat drivers IMHO.

So to answer the initial question - if you have tea colored water in a poly tank and it's in your racor filter on the first outing then the water is delivered in your fuel from your supplier and believe me, it's not "his fault", it's unavoidable - it's actually 100% certain you will get water at some point from your fuel supply , it is however 100% avoidable that it should stop your day of fun of you have the racor filter.

Some people will still resist installing one - thankfully I dont HAVE to boat / fish with them, I can choose not too.

You'd think Marine engine manufacturers would incorporate the same technology into their products as standard equipment, given the fact that water in fuel is a 100% certainty...

Then again - marine mechanics have to make a living too, and a simple racor filter could put half of them outta business overnight.

Maybe theres scope for a written article about water in boat fuel...

A piccy is always nice to reinforce the point.

The guys who collected this sample, siphoned out his 2 below decks poly tanks after 3 years use.

One had no water at all and the second one had all that crappy water depicted.

Apart from the fact that water can get into your own tank from rain, condensation or spray over the sides, it most definitely WILL get pumped into your tanks from the garagae one day, whether you like it or not.

Best to make sure it doesn't get to your OB engines carbys and with fuel injected OB's now out it's even more important.

Cheers!

[Alex]

Wow, that was some answer! Thanks, Trouty.

I wasnt sure if I need it if using plastic tanks, but now, after what I 've heard-most definitely. And I agree with you: when you wait for the next weekend on the water and then spend two-three hours paddling back to the ramp-the filter is a very small price to pay.
Thanks again, mate.

Cheers
Alex

Someone else had asked basically the same question ta a boating forum and since I'd already typed the full answer once it was just a question of a cut n paste to answer your question fully!

Hopeflly others will gain from the experience.

Cheers!

Trouty...where HAVENT you worked...lol
Being a pilot myself...everyone should ignore the comment about the charter pilot...he doesnt have to check it the five minutes before take off/taxi...

It's called experience kingpin, it's about the only benefit of getting old.

We are all dieing - just one day at a time...some of us have done more of it than some others is all!

So - do we envy the wise old man for his lifes experiences or pity him for his short time left on this mortal coil?

I dunno about you Kingpin, - but me, I like to see my pilot do his preflight checks...kinda comforting to know that nothings left to chance.....no doubt you can do em before your ride even gets to the airport, but what comfort/reassurance does your passenger get from that?

So far I think I've ridden / flown the following planes in my too short 44 years life...

Dehaviland DH28 A Tiger Moth
Piper Cub
Beechcraft Bonanza
Beechcraft Commanche/Cherokee (can't remember - the one that flies Gero to the Abrolhos for Shine Aviataion anyway)
Piper Saratoga? (Saratoga...spanish for lawnmower! *Tom Gleisener, A River Somewhere!)
Usual commercial 737's and F28's etc
Brittain Norman Islander
Kendall airlines turbo prop to Tassie & back
Bell Jetranger 600
Sikorski squirrel?
and likely one or two others I've forgotten about like some Ansett turbo prop thing once from Broome to Halls creek..

I like to see the tanks visually checked for water, with good reason...I've seen enough water in fuel to know it's a given sooner or later. I'd prefer it was later when it comes to planes....
If my car stops I can get out n walk - if my boat stops I can get out 'n swim - last time I looked, if my plane stops I can fly about as good as that darn bowling ball a yours!

Cheers!

Trouty thats good for you...you have flown some planes (legally?...). I have my license, i have covered the legal practise of pre-flight checks, I know how a charter system works (my family owns some charter business').
The point i was making is that a pilot doesnt need to go through his preflight in front of passengers, and his skills/reputation as a pilot/charter should not be scrutinised becuase he fails to do so.
He can do it the night before if he wishes to do so!
Just because you wish to see it (power/control issues maybe?), doesnt mean everyone else should, or that you should tell people to.
You can argue that your more experienced then me if you like...but i have my license, ive grown up at jandakot airport, and know what is practical in the aviation industry.

[Matt Ireland]

hey trouty

If its a 100 percent certain that water will get in fuel...how come Ive never seen it happen in petrol for car? Id it because theres generally a higher turnover of fuel in the dealers tanks for regular unleaded fuel?

Or do cars have water seperating filters built in? Or does it happen and ive just never seen it?

thanks

Matt

[yogi]

I disagree on dong the pre-flight check and maybe checking the fuel too early before a flight( definitely not over night ).

From where I come from, we have a validity period on how long a check will last. ( you never know what might have happened to the aircraft between the time you checked it and the time you fly it )

I guess having your clients/passengers watch you do your pre-flight checks sort of gives them confidence in yourself. In the end, it's their lives and yours you are controlling in the air.

Funny how a topic such as a water filter can turn into a debate like this. Cheers!

Yogi

I agree Yogi...Legally it can be done over night (i think some reform is underway) but common sense prevails...
I was only using it as an example. I would never do a preflight the night before and fly the A/C the next day without doing it again.
Anyone remember those two guys who crashed their A/C coz someone stole their fuel overnight (they did their pre-flight the night before)...unfortunately many checks (ful included) can be done the night before under the current rules.

But...i would also not ask my passengers to sit in the A/C (bloody hot in summer) while i do my full (slow) preflight check. Thats what i mean by practical...just because the charter doesnt do it in front of the passenger doesnt mean anything. Most passengers prefer to sit in the lobby (air conditioned) and hop straight in the plane and leave.
I shouldnt have said anything in the first place...just stood out as a silly comment to me...


Dave

[yogi]

Reading this thread makes me want to go out and fly something again... If there's something I like to do more than fish, it's flying. Especially low level over terrain and water.
Anyone know how much those helicopter flights for barra in the north would cost?
Cheers!

Yogi

Kingpin,

When I'm paying the charter bill and it's my nuts on the line - they check it with me watching, or I don't get in.

I had 6 pilots and 3 planes work for me for 8 years, where do you think I learned about pre flight routines!

I've never yet had a pilot not do it just automatically anyway.

Yogi,

Anyone know how much those helicopter flights for barra in the north would cost?

It's ben a few years now since I've chartered any choppers although over the years I've chartered a few for CALM when we had big fires, and later for fishing tours & lobster bait trials out to the Abrolhos islands etc.

Cost depends a lot on the chopper itself and what it's set up for.

To set em up for work over water costs a lot for the inflatable pontoons, inflatable life vests etc hence the charter rate is dearer to recoup the extra capital cost outlay.

Bell Jet rangers many years ago were ~ $600 bucks an hour - but you could bet they are more now.

One of the little sikorski?...things (it was a shaft drive) was cheaper - from memory mid $400 - $500 / hour

I wouldn't mind betting it's probably $700+ per hour or more bye now?.

Like I said it's been a few years - once upon a time I used to charter quite a few for ferrying frozen lobster baits out to the Abrolhos...hell once we chartered one to deliver about 12 pizza's out to the islands (you do get sick of crayfish and snapper / bluebone / dhufish after a month or two).

I personally find chopper flights over water not all that enjoyable - but my kids seemed to love it, looking down on all the reefs and sharks etc - maybe they were too young to be scared - all I know was the wife n I were petrified and glad to be off the damned noisey shakey bucket of bolts and back safely onto the ground in one piece.

All the same it's probably something everyone should try at least 'once' in their lifetime - sure puts a different perspective on things.

Cheers!

Good question about cars.

Combination of reasons for cars...

Probably:-

1. Fuel turnover rate means the tanker fills about at least once a week if not twice , hence the dipstick / grease / condys chrystals test gets done regular and any water removed before you take your delivery via the bowser hopefully. Marinas by contrast might not get a tanker the whole winter.

2. Filtration at the Bowser itself may well catch any small amount of water that builds up over a few days

3. Fuel tank pickup pipe in a car fuel tank 'may' be raised higher off the bottom of the tank, so that crap (and water) can sit without being sucked up the pipe. How often to people run there cars completely outta fuel?..... yes it does occurr - but what usually happens?...the crap (& any water) get sucked thru to the carbs and you end up needing a mechanic to fix it (clean the carby bowl and jets of crap and water) before it'll run any good again.

Usualy thats why the oldtimers tell you never to run your car completely out of fuel.

Boat tanks probably tend to take more pounding and sloshing around than a well sprung car, so any water instead of sitting politely on the bottom of the tank below the height of the pickup pipe, probably tends to get sucked up the pickup pipe more easily.

5. The fix.

In a car - as long as it'll run at least, you just lift the air cleaner and crank it over, or rev it up, and whack your palm over the top of the carby to create a lot of suction and often any water from the tank in the carby bowl will get sucked right thru the jets and she will then start sucking fuel again and keep on running.

If you could get to the throat of the carb in an outboard often the same trick would work on the old ones - these days they have that much bloody plastic doo dahhs in front of the carby throat you can't get to the bloody things with ya hand...meaning often once your stuck on the water it's too late.

If it's a pull start then your really in strife because it's bloody hard to pull the chord and suction the carby at the same time...(without help)

6. Cars fuel tanks don't operate in as wet an environment as boats tanks do, when they start fitting bilge pumps to cars - you'll likely see more water in the fuel!

7. Car fuel pumps (the old ones at least) usually have a glass bowl with one a them really fine gauze filters inside them, (the old holdens/fords had em). The gauze was actually fine enough that water wouldn't easily go thru it - some of the really old plastic fuel funnels used to have the same fine brass gauze mesh in em, and again water would sit on top of the gauze while fuel would pass thru...

Effectively - they are the same function as a racor water separating fuel filter in a boat, and water sat down in the bottom of the glass bowl - visible to the mechanic who would do your tune up and he would drain it for you.

Still a bloody good question - sorry I missed your post in amongst the others.

Cheers!