Hard body leader length

yellow door 1 · #1 21-11-2005, 08:55 AM

Lost a couple of HB's today as I've been trying to try cast as far as possible with longish leaders. More of a pendulum surf cast than a gentle single hand flick. The excessive force is weakening the leader knot as it bounces through the guides.

After the second lure popped off during a cast tonight, I realised it wasnt just my crap knots. I switched to a 50cm leader and made sure the leader knot was hanging outside the guides. Casting distance improved and I didnt lose another lure.

The little rainbows didnt mind but I'm wondering how short a leader you can get away with for bream. I'll be doing my own tests but I was wondering if anyone has any experience in this area

yellow door 1 · #2 21-11-2005, 09:24 AM

I should say that my standard leader length is 1.6m - I use 8lb Vanish mainline flourocarbon as a leader - Tied to 6lb fireline - I use uni to uni joining knot.

It never breaks on single handed flick but since I started belting the lures out, the flouro is popping right at the knot. I'm very confident that the banging on the guides is the cause.

Hearing the difference when I cast with just the fireline going through was very different.

I'm not being rude

but I'm not after recommendations of improving my knots or leader. I'm more interested in the lengths of leader you can get away with.

Piscineidiot · #3 21-11-2005, 09:24 AM

Hey Lawrence,

I can vouch for having lost a few lures that way. Mainly because I've been tying 4lb braid to a minmum of 10lb leader. The problem lies in the braid being so very thin, and cutting through the knot. To solve the problem, I double it using a bimini, THEN tie it to the leader using a special knot that Ted taught me with the tag-end pointing backwards. I find that way, casting distance isn't compromised significantly, and I rarely lose a lure unless it's because I haven't tightened the knot properly or have neglected to check them after putting a lot of pressure down the line.

I know you're asking about the length of your leader specifically, but personally, I've never had that alone become the problem. Do you ever notice something going wrong with the knot before it actually happens?

yellow door 1 · #4 21-11-2005, 09:40 AM

Yeh the knots hold up under normal casting but when I put everything I have into the cast they pop. After about 25 casts they'd let go - the uni to uni stays intact but the rest of the leader flys away with the lure.

Brad Y · #5 21-11-2005, 09:42 AM

I found the vanish line as the worst leader possible out of four brands when it came to knot strength.

For me i use about 3m leader as i dont like retying them in comps. And im paranoid about fish seeing braid.

I recommend trying seaguar, nitlon or yamatoyo. Only tried the first two but alot of folks over here use yama and drool over it.

JMO

Piscineidiot · #6 21-11-2005, 09:42 AM

Sounds like the massive casts are exacerbating the cutting...I often ended up with a piece of leader still on the end of my line wrapped up in the braid.

yellow door 1 · #7 21-11-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad Y
I found the vanish line as the worst leader possible out of four brands when it came to knot strength.

For me i use about 3m leader as i dont like retying them in comps. And im paranoid about fish seeing braid.

I recommend trying seaguar, nitlon or yamatoyo. Only tried the first two but alot of folks over here use yama and drool over it.

JMO

I'm glad you both decided to ignore my second post

I've been kidding myself for a while. I've grown accustomed to the vanish and it has caught some decent fish. I know its not the best, but the 8 lb hasnt been all that bad. I hadnt paid much attention to my knot either as it hasnt broken in this manner or on a fish before - (except for one salmon - I was fully trying to horse it in coz I got impatient)

I'll check out the other flouro's asap - I'd still be interested in the leader lengths part of the question.

Shortlite · #8 21-11-2005, 10:11 AM

LUBRICATE, LUBRICATE, LUBRICATE!!!
I found that that indicates heat stress at the spot where you tighten your braid section and draw it down tight.
I had the same problem before, and was completely at a loss why.

Doubling with a Bimini, tightening slowly, carefully and drawing down with lots of lubricant eases heat stress on the leader.

As far as leader length, I have used multi-stage leaders twice the length of the rod, with a couple of turns around the spool without trouble. You do get a little frictional loss from when the leader springs off the spool compared to just Fireline, but not too much. Also, the knot springing off and slapping in the guides sometimes catches the frame edge and causing some jerking on the way out.

Owen also had the unique problem of his Bimini opening and going around the guides. Go figure.

Piscineidiot · #9 21-11-2005, 10:29 AM

Sorry Lawrence, but when I see a familiar problem, I can't help but stick my nose in and open my mouth, even when the answer's not what the other person wants to hear.

As for you Ted, 'It's cos I'm special'. There's no other reason behind it, just that. So, thank you very much.

Owen

yellow door 1 · #10 21-11-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shortlite
LUBRICATE, LUBRICATE, LUBRICATE!!!
I found that that indicates heat stress at the spot where you tighten your braid section and draw it down tight.
I had the same problem before, and was completely at a loss why.

Thanks - Its not lubrication. I am very particular at this stage of tying. Very slow in tightening and leave a glob of spit on each loosely tightened knot before fully tightening. Also lubricate the lengths of line between the 2 knots before bringing them together.

I think the problem is the slapping knot. I was amazed at how quiet my casts were when the knot started outside the guides. (Haven't cast with the knot outside the guides for years)

This indicated to me that eithier I need a lower profile knot - stronger (better quality) leader or the option I decided on - dont let the knot run across the guides.

I know I confused the issue by including the reason for asking the question but I thought some background info might be helpful.

Piscineidiot · #11 21-11-2005, 10:34 AM

So, Lawrence,

Since you're casting with the leader knot outside of the guides, does that mean you don't really want to use a leader much longer than say, 60cm? I'm just thinking it would get awkward after much more than that much line hanging out, especially with light lures...

yellow door 1 · #12 21-11-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Piscineidiot
Sorry Lawrence, but when I see a familiar problem, I can't help but stick my nose in and open my mouth, even when the answer's not what the other person wants to hear.

As for you Ted, 'It's cos I'm special'. There's no other reason behind it, just that. So, thank you very much.

Owen

Lol - I know how it is - Thats why I specifically stated I wasnt interested in the area's you brought up

But I'm very glad everyone has decided to ignore it. I'm burning the Vanish Jimi hendrix style as soon as I find a supply of the good stuff

yellow door 1 · #13 21-11-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Piscineidiot
So, Lawrence,

Since you're casting with the leader knot outside of the guides, does that mean you don't really want to use a leader much longer than say, 60cm? I'm just thinking it would get awkward after much more than that much line hanging out, especially with light lures...

Yes thats the issue - I was hoping to find out if anyone uses leaders that short or if anyone had tryed and given up coz it was costing them fish.

Shortlite · #14 21-11-2005, 01:21 PM

Well, good for you. Stick with what works for ya. You may well come up on situations where you require a longer leader, and your trouble may come back to bite you in the ass.

60 cm is fine a lot of the time. I was just suggesting that it's not just line slap that causes the breakage. You could analyse till you're blue in the face. It could have been a section of crappy leader.

Gotta love that Jimi fire!!

Owen, we all know how special (schitzo) you are. Funny voices and all. The only person I know who's ever had that Bimini problem.

yellow door 1 · #15 21-11-2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shortlite
Well, good for you. Stick with what works for ya. You may well come up on situations where you require a longer leader, and your trouble may come back to bite you in the ass.

Yeh you're definately right - I was being narrow minded - Whats the name of the knot you tie that has the tag ends pointing backwards. I'll google up some instructions on how to tie it and give it a go.