Four stroke vs Two Stroke ???

[Backfire]

It difficult to have a reasoned conversation with Trouty about, in this case, 2 strokes. When in several of the above blusters, it is clear he has no clue as to the actual detail functioning of most 2 strokes. It is obvious he lacks an understanding of things chemical, as in biodegradeable and combustionable. A disclamer of "IMHO" is supposed to be taken a some value, when in many cases, a statement may be devoid of most truth. Such as IMHO, the moon is green cheeze.

"becuase induction air is scavenged from the sump - and exhaust gasses are expelled thru the sump".
More humor than fact, Trouty. And how are those bearing lubed again?
I can only suggest a fact finding trip to ANY outboard dealership to finally understand how a 2 stroke really works. In the case of a real mystery engine, you will have to visit an Evinrude dealer to hear about the ability to run 5 hours or more without oil at 1200 RPM. NASAloy, what is it? My car uses a couple quarts of oil between changes, it ain't on the driveway, whered't go?
Backfire

[Angry]

While this subject has at times got a little bogged down, Its also been extremely informative. I've learned a lot, and I've enjoyed it.
I would like to harp back to something bought up early in the piece, about the price of 2 and four strokes becoming more comparable.
while you certainly can get 2 strokes alot cheaper (like the yami CV's and the Merc lites?) it really is comparing apples to oranges.

Because of a stuffed back, some of my prerequisites for a new motor where elec start and PTT. Was very surprised to learn that going on local prices (newcastle area) it was only about 300 dollars differance between the fully featured 2 stroke brand and the equivilent size and featured 4 stoke (different brand). I'm not mentioning brand names cos I think its irrelevent to this discusion.

the prices are getting closer. and it won't be long before we see the phasing out of older technology 2 strokes.

I'll keep my carbied four stroke for now (cos I've got it) but must admit that lower maintenance costs on DI 2 strokes could swing me back that way at replacement time (a long way off at the moment, i hope.)

food for thought gentlemen, but not worth fighting over.

[Ajax]

Hi evryone, new to this forum but was interested in the 2 v 4 stroke debate because I am buying a 4 stroke with a bit of uncertainty beneath the positive exterior of a brave decision.

However this thread seems to be torn apart by a posting person that is soooo anti 2 stroke or morelikely has a beef with a sales rep in his past, that whilst his comments make me feel good as a new 4 stroke buyer, I cant help but feel that no one has realy defined the answer.

Could I ask anyone with practical know how this question please... "In my case I am buying a 60hp Johnson 4 stroke because it was offered at the same price as a Merc 3 cyl 2 stroke 60hp (not the Etechy gizmo), so does the price in my case make the 4 stroke a no brainer???"

I don't want to know about solving world hunger in the pollution stakes, just simply want to know if I made the right choice in a practical fishing/boating sense.

I bought a new Stacer Easyrider Bowrider Sports 475 with the Johny 60 4 stroke and only do inland saltwater bream & flatty fishing.

Cheers & thanks for any helpful thoughts!

[Stephen Wilson]

Trouty, Trouty, Trouty
Mate you had to have gone to the kelloggs corn flakes school of engineering ......... and to get your so called bit of research
from some moped site in tiawan where every 2 wheeled putt putt blows gallons of toxic smoke and god knows what else into the air . Well bugger me that is riveting stuff (im going to get me one of those motors and chuck it on the back of me new boat).i know the liberal party are looking for a new spindoctor, or maybe you could run for the position of minister for energy,the environment,Foreign affairs,Treassurer,Comunications ,gee with your knowledge of

1 Mechanics
2 Physics
3 Biology
4 Mathamatics
5 Electronics
not to mention you are a inventer

As they say bullshit baffles brains.
So just stick to your 4 stroke and like you say to other people with views different to yours........
I think what bubble and other people are saying is there is alternatives to 4 strokes so let other people make there own minds up by doing there own research.Show me something bad about the E-TEC and then i might listen. Stop trying to push your views on everyone

I have 1 question Trouty that i have been wondering about for years that i think you can answer
What come first the chicken or the egg ???????

[John from IL]

That was an interesting google article, however its subject matter concerned 2-stroke, air-cooled, carbureted, wheel vehicles (motor bikes & three-wheelers likely). Hardly the same as a water-cooled direct injection outboard.

Did you know: The oils used in water cooled 2-strokes are completely different than air cooled 2-strokes. The lubrication requirements differ because of the actual running temp differences between the two engine types. And as I recall from running snow mobiles and an occassional chain saw, the air cooled oils were never ashless (particulate matter) - most of the outboard manufacturers oils are ashless.

- The quoted google article had a very high concern for using the wrong oils in the wheeled vehicle application. It gave me the impression many people may be recycling used 4-stroke crankcase oil in their 2-stroke motor bikes. Anyone else pick up on that point? Also noticed some of the data in that article dating back to 1993?? - Gee, that's about the time the the Evinrude engineers began their r&d on direct injection technology...

Did you know: That gasoline fully combusts at about 400 degrees F? That 2-stroke oil (for water-cooled engines) burns and fully combusts around 1000 degrees F? And that the solvents in the oil typically burn off by 650 degrees F?

Did you know: That the combustion chamber temps in E-TEC are much higher than 1000F and exhaust gas temps on a DI or E-TEC engine are in the vicinity of 1400 degrees F - any oil that survives the combustion event will be burned in the exhaust stream.

Here’s a comparison of the 50 E-TEC, vs the 50 Johnson 4-stroke exhaust emissions:
- 50 E-TEC figures are HC+Nox = 17.6 gr/kwhr and CO = 66.5 gr/kwhr.
- 50 4-stroke figures are HC+Nox = 15.8 gr/kwhr and CO = 235.27 gr/kwhr.

HC is Hydrocarbon, Nox is Oxides of Nitrogen and CO is Carbon Monoxide (the killer). This data can be found on the U.S. EPA web-site. Frankly, after comparing the certified data there, after carbureted 2-stroke outboards, the "dirtiest" engines are 25 (or so) horsepower and smaller 4-stroke outboard, and believe it or not, the smaller the dirtier!

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how those Yanmar diesel outboards fair in terms of emissions? We never see those little guys here in the US.

-John

[Ajax]

Hey guys, I am not sure that I am fitting into this forum too well as I am not technical enought to talk the sort of stuff that some of you technically blessed people can.

However for what it is worth, I posted an entry a few before this one asking if I made the right decision in buying a Johnson 4 stroke 60 which sorta fell on deaf ears. Anyway, since then I have taken delivery of the new boat and have proudly clocked up 4 hours on the clock.

I have to report that the motor was unbelievable!!! No noise on idle (I mean no noise, had to check it was runing). The ride was very smooth and when it hit 4000rpm it gave an impressive motor noise that sounded like tigers purr that just got better and better as I ran it up to 4500. I am not to push it to the 5000 range until 10 hours use. And to not smell the oil fumes was great too. But the biggest buzz for me is getting home at 2am and kicking the new girl over for a flush out and not one neighbourly complaint, it was that quite!

I have the greatest respect for 2 strokes but have to say the 4 stroke Johnson has won my heart. Sorry I cant talk about the techno stuff, Im just an average guy that loves fishing and knows not much about mechanics.

Cheers everyone,
Ajax

[Angry]

to ease your mind Ajax, you've made a good buy. If it does what you want and your happy to pay the price then your already in front. Almost all new outboards these days are reliable, and if you look after it. it will look after you.
there are pro's and cons for all sides
The 4 stroke v modern 2 stroke argument is like the ford v holden or the old Merc v OMC argument. there is no end to it and frankly at the end of the day its pretty much academic. Regrdless of the product, some one out there will have a friend who knew someone who was let down by BRAND X and therefore they all suck. And it goes the other way as well, I even heard of a guy who was happy with Chrysler outboard, and thats got to be crap (VTIC)
Most people will stick with a product they have good experiances with and stay away from products that dissatisfied them.

buy the best you can afford and live with your decision.

Here's cheers to all us average guys

[Ajax]

Thanks Angry, you are right and all the debates over 4 v 2 strokes will not change the fact that at the end of the day everyone will naturally defend their purchase decision.

To the bloke with the fettish for 4 strokes and raved on about the pollution of 2 strokes killing the water ways, stick this one in your pipe and smoke it......My new 4 stroke blew a puff of smoke last Sunday when I started it, sure it did not blow any more but it proves that your arguments are based on theory and it also proves you do not own one, so own up, you either have no outboard ownership experience at all or you actually own a 2 stroke and think that everyone is killing the waters based on your old heap of clapped out smokin, stinkin, smelly and dribling 2 stroke. You should clean your act up and stop polluting the water I play in.

Cheers everyone,
Ajax

I go away fishing for 3 weeks and the weavels have got into the metaphoric outboard flour while I was away.

When in several of the above blusters, it is clear he has no clue as to the actual detail functioning of most 2 strokes.

Actually I have a marine engineering qualification as a matter of fact - that means I know all about the functioning of both 2 & 4 cycle marine gasoline (petrol) engines as well as 2 & 4 cycle marine diesel engines, (along with a few other things as well like bilge systems and so on).

That along with a few other quals is what lets me skipper a paying passenger vessel with plebs like you lot on it for hire or reward while chartering.

The Johnston 4 stroke OB purchased will be a great engine - it's made by Suzuki - so it should be a bewt.

As for clean Etecs - forget it. As long as they have bearings on the mains and crank lubricated by oil in suspension in the petrol supply scavenged from the sump or the exhaust gas stream passaged thru the sump, they will ALWAYS be polluters of our inland waterways - period.

Don't matter WHAT 2 cycle engine - your moped, weed whacker, or your 2 cycle OB engine - if you pour lubricating TCW3 engine oil in the fuel tank - then i'm afraid it condenses out as a liquid oil droplet in the Exhaust.

If it didn't, the engine would sieze because it's bearings (not to mention rings) wouldn't be getting lubricated.

As I've shown - the USA environment CARB emissions analysys are based upon exhaust gas analysis which DOESN'T account for liquid output (oil droplets / particulate matter) in the exhaust stream.

Oil goes in the tank of the 2 cycle OB and comes out the exhaust.

Wanna prove it to yourself if your an etek fan?

Get a clean white sheet of blotting paper, run the etek at midrange revs for a short burst while on the muffs (so as to not overheat it with prolonged running above idle while on reduced wtare flow of the hose/muffs) and hold the clean white paper behind the exhaust hub when you give the throttle a blip.

Ya paper will be covered in oil droplets - thats what ends up in our inland waterways killing birds fish and other aquatic organisms vital to the survival of aquatic macro invertebrates - the building blocks of the aquatic food chain.

The more boat & OB engine sales staff try to convince you otherwise - the deeper they dig their hole - the same hole they will one day have to climb out of.

Face it - the age ot the 2 stroke is DEAD.

Would you walk down the jetty into the Swan river and pour a litre of tcw3 oil into the river?......

What makes any sane person who knows even the most rudimentary basics of OB engines believe that when they pour that same oil in their fuel tank think some of it doesn't end up in the water?

As for not owning a 4 stroke OB - well - I actually own a yr 2000 model 50Hp Merc 4 stroke....(Powerhead built and supplied to Brunswick corp eg Merc, by Yamaha!).

It would be irresponsible to suggest any 2 strokes should be allowed to operate in inland waters IMHO.

Breammasters and the Australian bream circuit should be considerig the implications of allowing use of 2 cycle engines in inland closed waterways/ estuaries for comps IMHO.
(They should be seen to be setting the example, by leadership).

Many of our local rivers have bars at the mouth which CAN stay closed for some years and accumulation of TCW3 oils is a real problem for these types of closed systems, not to mention lakes.

I well recall a water analysis sample of freshwater from remote Lake Jasper back in my CALM days that clearly showed traces of oil and lead from water skiing permitted on the lake in years past.

Thats a lake 40 ft deep with 3 miles long & 2 miles wide of fresh potable (read drinkable) water, that even with it's remote location - tough 4wd only access, already shows signs of being polluted from past use by ski boats, with 2 cycle OB engines.

These environments are too fragile to be despoiled in this way - if you lot want to enjoy good freshwater angling in them in years to come.

Its that simple.

I've said it before - MAYBE Etek 2 cycle technologuy has a place for use in the ocean - however inland closed freshwaters IMHO ISN'T the place to be using them or any other 2 cycle OB engine, period.

Cheers!

[Backfire]

Rave on Trouty, you may hold a pilot license, but you still do not know more than the basics 2 stroke/4 stroke tech. Every time you spout ignorance it is more apparant. Just for an example, if there
was any truth in what you say, Lake X in Florida, USA, has been the Mercury test lake for over 50 years and as such would be the most polluted lake on earth. Mercury has run engines 24 hours a day for years, burned oil ratios from 16/1 to 100/1. They have burned millions of gallons of fuel and oil in this small closed lake. This is the site where all their race equipment (not known for economy) is tuned and tested and consumer products are developed. If ever an example of gross over use and potential failure of the eco-system was to take place, this is the place. With more studies than a person can absorb, more money spent than the average king's treasury, nobody can show damage to anything. That would put Scientific Testing 1, Trouty O. Everyone may have opinion, it may just not count for much when it runs counter to the facts.
Backfire

For OB engine salesmen trying to peddle there wares here is that I DO know a little more than the average bear - when it comes to marine engines.

but you still do not know more than the basics 2 stroke/4 stroke tech

Theres been several attempts to try and hoodwink people into believing that eteks are "cleaner" than 4 strokes, while ignoring liquid oil emissions thru the exhaust into the water.

USA's EPA CARB readings are conducted with an exhaust GAS analyser...it simply DOESN'T analyse the liquid oil emissions of 2 stroke engines, which is WHY Eteks results on the surface initially APPEAR to the untrained ey to be so good...

Problem is half the story isn't told - the bit about oil emissions just isn't mentioned and plenty wish I'd keep my trap shut about it - usually those who are selling the polluting things for a living.


Theres been suggestions that because the fuels injected after the intake and exhaust ports are closed over, there is no oil makes it past the combustion process to pollute the water.

UNTRUE

The big ends and mains bearings (as well as gudgeons) are lubricated with oil from the fuel...if it didn't get oil into the crankcase the engine would sieze. Its that simple.

Once the oils in the cranckcase to do it's lubrication job, it MUST thus end up in the water.

It's also been suggested that due 5to the temp of burn all the oil is turned to ash.

Again - UNTRUE

Without lubrication - the engine would sieze. Ash doesnt lubricate.

Another untruth.

The truth is that the new Eteks are polluters of our waterways with oil emissions in the exhaust gases, period. They may not be as bad as some of the earlier less technologically advanced 2 strokes - but they non the less still do pollute - period.

If they didn't lubricate their crancase bearings and rings with oil from the fuel - then maybe they wouldn;'t be so bad for the environement - but then they wouldn't run at all they would sieze period.

If a 2 stroke runs - it pollutes the water - thats an inescapable fact of 2 stroke engines due to the way they are lubricated.

No matter how much you wave the magic wand - no one can make it any different.

The pollution affects our waterways and fisherys.

Breamers rely on healthy waterways for a good fishery.

Why do you think Walpoles a better bream Fishery than the swan - it has a more healthy water, less fishing poressure and less pollution...

Here people sit with the Swan river getting huge algael blooms every year - with attendanrt fish mass mortality events and yet those same people want to ignore their own contribution to the problems with their use of 2 stroke engines in the Swan river.

It beggars belief frankly.

If it were me I'd BAN 2 strokes from bream comps eventually if breamers are serious about preserving their resource as they claim to be with banning of netting and other issues.

Either your for the rivers and their fish or your not - if you have a 2 stroke on the back of your boat - your a part of the problem not a part of the solution.

Can't make it any more black n white than that!

Sponsors of the site who sell 2 stroke OB's - hey I'm sorry - thats just the way it is - if the rivers end up dead and theres no fish - you'll end up selling no boats and no outboards in the long run so better to get with the program NOW than after it's too late.

At the moment despite the technological advances of etek, 4 stroke remains the answer of inland & freshwaters. Peddle your eteks in the ocean if you must.

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

You crack me up big time, I am sure you are mostly right but I am curious, why the passion to the extent that you risk being boring and how do you afford the time to write such long stories???

I will admit that I do not have a fancy piece of paper like you, but as true as I write this, I have had many occassions where engineers have had no idea on a practical matter and I have had to help them resolve the most simplest of tasks. I actually know a marine engineer who once when we went fishing in his 2 stroke left the bung plugs out and began to panic as the boat was sinking (hehehehehehe) It still cracks me up to this day, anyway I calmly told him to kick her in the guts and once on the plane the water will run out and then cut the motor and I'll plug the bung holes. He looked at me with stupid look before doing as I said. He talked about this for days after and was embarressed that his qualifications led him to nothing but a state of panic. So good onya for the qualification but that does not make you any better or brighter than the next guy.

If nothing else you are entertaining and whilst I am still at the fingerling stage I will respect your longer standing on this forum, keep up the crap and as all you engineers learnt "If you cant dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullshit" your doin well!

Cheers,
Ajax

Good question Ajax.

I'm passionate about our environment, I did work for CALM for 8 years doing my best to be "dedicated to the cause" of protecting our environment.

I've made a small living out of fishing / guiding in our rivers for a good number of years now.

I live alongside the Backwood river - I can look at whats left of it out my window as I type.

I have kids - one of whom hopes to one day earn his living as a fishing guide on these very same rivers... (He's in yr 12 of an outdoor marine education course now - looking to join the workforce in the fishing / guiding industry next year, hopefully to work with me at some stage before eventually taking over my charter licenses etc and making his own way in life.)

It gives me a "stake" or "vested interest" in the future health of our rivers / estuaries. Why do I battle the beaurecrats who want to TAKE away his future rights to fish in the Blackwood thru the marine parks planning process so passionately?

Because they are trying to take away my sons future is why - and when it comes to fighting for ones kids future - I intend to take no prisoners..

With regard to Eteks - well - the "passion" has to do again with history.

Hundreds of successful mom & pop outboard / boating businesses around this nation (and in fact world wide) went to the wall when the OMC Johnston Evinrude empire collapsed over failure of FICHT technology only a handfull of years ago (1999) - thru no fault of their own.

They were left high and dry with new engines with no spare parts and no warrantys, totally worthless junk...

Along comes Canadian Bombadier co - buys up the company for next to nuthin and NOW wants all the world to "trust them" with another new marvel ETEK technology???.

Then in order to get the marketing humming along on an untried unproven new technology - they start to flog the engines - by telling "lies of omission" about how environmentally clean they are.

This is the same co who bought Evinrude Johnston and left all the owners of old FICHT product without warrantiies or spare parts on brand new engines... "just too bad sucker" was the approach to those loyal customers & dealers when they bought the company!!.

Basically - I wouldn't trust the pr!cks as far as I could throw them, and I think Aussies and other boaters around the world would be fools in the extreme to do so - until such time as the Etek technology is thoroughly proven in the marketplace.

Theres been enough lies and bad feelings left in the stomachs of Evinrude and Johnston brand name owners in recent years not to need to start the NEW line of Eteks off wth a campaign based on lies of ommission IMHO.

Bombadier should know better IMHO.

IF ETEK is as good as we are being led to believe - then it will EARN its right of place in the marine market, one engine sale at a time like every one else did and just like the early Evinrudes and Johnstons, did - by being reliable.

Theres no shortcuts back from the Debacle that was the collapse of OMC corporation that left so many loyal Johnston & Evinrude owners & dealerships high and dry with worthless outboards...back in 1999/ 2000.

IF Bombadier HAD done the right thing and stuck bye those customers with warranties and spare parts availability thru the OMC collapse when they bought the company for next to nothing - then I wouldn't be as hard on them as I am today.

They had a choice to honor warranties or not and to provide spare parts or not and they chose not too - they chose to screw over the OB buying public for a quick buck..

They shouldn't be surprised when the OB buying public now chooses to screw them right back!!!!.

Back in 1969 as a 10 year old - the very first OB motor starter chord I ever pulled was a 5.5 hp Johnston....

Bombadier helped sully the reputation of a ONCE great brand name in marine history - they ain't going to get away with it cheap - decisions they took when they bought the company, to leave the loyal customer & dealer base high and dry will haunt them in the marine market place for generations to come.

That kid a mine starting out in the marine industry?...wouldn't buy a bombadier product as long as his azzhole points to the ground while I'm still around.

The only way Bombadier will ever find their way BACK into the marine market place after what they did to honest hard working mom n pop OB dealers all over Australia (and the rest of the globe) & all the loyal customers of OMC product - is by generational change.

In a another generation or two - when all those people they screwed over are dead n gone....THEN maybe then - they will have EARNED the right to be considered a serious player in the marine market industry again - they ain't going to get there with a sales campaign full of lies of omission and slicker than owl snot while I'm still left around to blow the goddamn whistle on the buggers!

I think Bombadier as a company - don't give a round rats touche about their customers - or they woulda looked after better the loyal band of customers and dealers during the OMC collapse and subsequent purchase bye Bombadier.

When they chose to screw both groups over for a cheap quid - they did themselves irrepairable public image damage IMHO.

They certainly COULD have done it better - why should the share price and profits of Bombadier be totally a result of the BILLIONS of $ that outboard owners and dealers around the world LOST when OMC collapsed?

Bombadier had the choice at the time to lessen cutomers and dealers pain, and they chose not too - what right do they now have to come along and expect the marine industry to support them in any way.

You see Bombadier hopes to trade on the generations of GOODWILL that Evinrude and Johnston Brandnames engender in the boat buying public, yet when they bought the c0ompany OMC who owned those brandnames - the very forst thing they did - was screw over ebvery loyal customer and dealer who had new engines left in stock by not honoring warranties nor providing spare parts.

They don't deserve ANY of the goodwill of the former Evinrude or Johnston brand names they bought for nuthin because the screwed boaters over for a quick profit.

I hope Bombadier get screwed right back over bye the very same boaters and dealer base they screwed over when they bought OMC corporation for pennies on the pound!!!.

That would be what I call poetic justice!

FICHT & ETEK - is there any real difference? Just another marine industry debacle looking for somewhere to happen IMHO.

Those who get left holding worthless etek junk when the inevitable collapse comes will be just as badly hurt as those left holding worthless OMC priduct when they collapsed IMHO.

The more people who choose NOT to buy Bomb product as a result of my scriblings - the less number of poor sops to get screwed over next time around, is the way I look at it.

Theres no shortcuts in the marine industry - Bombadier will have to learn that the hard way.

Was I one of the boaters left holding worthless OMC product?

Answers NO - but i saw boating bulletin boards the world over filled with fearfull people who had just bought new OMC product and who were left to hang out to dry by Bombadier...not to mention all the dealers likewise left up the creek without a paddle!.

I used to like my local OB dealer, and he and his business went to the wall over the OMC collapse thru no fault of his own!.

Bombadier COULD have chosen to do things better when it came to looking after their cutomers and dealers when they bought OMC. Those seagulls will come home to roost!

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

You need to enjoy life a little more, You responded with three main personal issues and it would seem that your passion in this forum is fueled by matters that are outside of the debate of 2 stroke v 4 stroke.

I joined this forum because I wanted to get a fair opinion on whether or not I made the right choice of a 4 stroke because it was new territory for me.

Instead of good fisho's tales and advice what I saw was your passion in putting every red herring up ranging from pollution to multi-corporate politics. This made it very difficult to get a laymans feel for the real forum topic and became very frustrating.

I think you are too close to your issues to make generalisations which on a practical level seem way out of kilta.

In the interest of this forum Ill get back on track with the topic... My new 4 stroke is a very nice piece of kit and the fuel economy is excellent. Regarding 4 v 2 I would say that the answer is either depending on situation.

The easy way to determine which one is the right choice (having thought about it more) is to ask yourself two questions. They are 1) Is speed an important factor for my use?
2) Is money an issue for my purchase?

Because it is very obvious that the 2 strokes are much gruntier than the 4's so if speed is critical then a 2 stroke is the go. However, if speed is not critical then the next question should be asked as to whether or not affordability is an issue. If it is than still go the 2 stroke, if not then definitely go the 4 stroke. In the event that both 2 & 4 stroke level out at the same price then speed becomes the main determining factor.

Ya all have a nice day,

Ajax

[Cloud 9]

just a reply to what trouty said about etec 2strokes

with etecs the fuel is the only thing that gets injected into the cylinder. the oil is injected into the wear point in the bottom end of the motor there is zero smoke no mater what you try with the engine,they only use about 250ml per 20hours or so.
if a four stroke is on anyones shopping list id still buy a ETEC you cant beat 2 stroke performance,and low weight, fuel econ is better on the etec as well. its a win win for ETEC.