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#32
13-08-2009, 04:41 AM
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So 28 cm to the fork in the comps is your legal 30-31 cm bream to the tip. All fish under 28 cm to the fork during the comp is released immediately meaning that more fish are returned to the water. Cheers, Alex
__________________
For a healthy livewell contact me and check out the link below: Monster Miki Addict 
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#33
13-08-2009, 05:06 AM
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Hi guys,
just my rebuttal on some posts that I have read today – makes a change from having my head in a book. “Yes you can. Your average recreational fisho can kill 20 bream for weekend not to mention all flathead, salmon, travelly and luderick they can keep. And if fishing with their family-a lot more.” “On the other hand, 200 pro fishos (man, I am a pro now! ) catch 10 fish per boat for 2 people for a weekend of which all bream (and flathead, travelly, luderick and salmon) go back to the water unharmed. And by the way some "pros" go home with doughnuts”. Obviously, not every “average recreational fisho” WILL kill 20 bream a weekend. I am an average fisho (very average) and I would struggle to catch 20 bream a weekend normally. The amount of the fisho’s that are seen at my local boat ramp, stating they didn’t catch very much at all, normally outweighs the amount of fishermen that catch bag limits regularly. Not sure what you mean by “flathead salmon trevally and luderick they can keep”. Bag limits apply to those species as well. You also mention that pro’s catch of 10 fish per boat for a weekend. My maths is that it is 20 fish per boat per weekend, if both anglers catch a full bag. Your figure is right for 1 day of comp fishing, not a weekend. You also state that these bream and other associated bi-catch go back unharmed. I have firsthand knowledge that this fish do not go back unharmed and a percentage suffer some sort of harm as a result of being caught. A bream comp proposed to be held up here (cancelled mind you) had all competitors driving back from the boat ramp, along a bumpy road at highways speed to a weigh in about 20km’s down the coast. It would have been interesting to see how many bream were injured in that trip. “Bream get upset or they might die if not released in the same spot? Is there any scientific data to support this claim?” Your reply seems to be mocking the concerns raised. If bream were in a certain part of the system, due to the fact that the environmental requirements, reached their needs (For example, Food sources, what quality, oxygen rate, salinity rate – a whole number of environmental factors) and if they were removed from this microclimate (This is scientific fact, check out “Elements of ecology, 7th edition, T. Smith & R. Smith 2009”). This could quite possibly have a negative impact on the bream and their chances at survival and spawning ability. AsIi said before, there isn’t much data available on western Yellowfin bream that I have come across. I am not sure about the southern black bream – perhaps you know of somewhere that we can gather data from? It was mentioned before that tagging programs have been undertaken in vic. Who by and where’s the data? “I cannot comment on the amount of other comps in Vic. (clubs, etc.) happening throughout a year, but in this discussion we are limiting ourselves to only those two”. It seems surprising that a thread titled “Is comp fishing sustainable” is only being limited to 1 state in Australia, where there is only 2 known comps, for the entire year throughout the state. For a more meaningful discussion and one that has some basis for further study, perhaps we discuss the thread title “Is comp fishing sustainable” not “Is comp fishing sustainable for 2 comps in one state per year” Sustainability is something that is hard to define in this context. There is a definite definition for the environment; there is a definition for financial sustainability and individual sustainability of a species. But I think in this discussion, all 3 factors are being discussed ”a c&r comp will kill a very low number of fish regardless of the target species. There is some tagging evidence to suggest that bream in particular go about their business with little or no adverse impact after release. So I assume that the sustainability of the species would not be challenged” Once again, who has carried out this tagging and what data has resulted from it? It is also mentioned that most “comp” boats are running low emission outboards. I’d agree with this, but what about the effects of wash from these boats having on erosion on riverside banks? What about the effect of fisho’s using electric over weed beds, effectively being used as “lawn mowers”. I am trying to put across the argument that Comp fishing is not the ONLY problem affecting estuaries, but combined with over fishing recreationally, over fishing by professionals and the affect of other environmental factors. Combined, these “drains” on the environment will one day have a large effect to play on the estuarine environment. I am not for the total cessation of comp fishing. But if rec fishing can help control one small part of the problem, by putting in place controls and regulations to protect our sport and our environment, than that has to be a good thing doesn’t it? There are a lot of people out there that are arguing for the complete end to fishing. If we are seen to be making some sort of positive impact on the environment, then this can only work in our favour. It was mentioned that fishing practises have improved over the last 20 years. Yes they have, but I believe they can improve. Obviously computer technology has improved over the last 20 years, but the pc industry just doesn’t stand still today and say “oh well, we’ve come far enough. Let’s stop now” So why should the rec fishing industry. I’m not saying that what we are doing is wrong as rec fisher’s but I believe we can improve our ways of fishing and reduce the impact on the environment. Once again, sorry about the rant, but I do feel strongly about this. Regards, ff
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#34
13-08-2009, 06:57 AM
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Very good point by the way.
__________________
snag Proudly associated with Bing Lee/Delkor Batteries
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#35
13-08-2009, 08:31 AM
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Hi ff,
I just wanted to clarify a few things that I possibly didn't make absolutely clear in my previous post: Quote:
Cheers and good fishing to all 
__________________
For a healthy livewell contact me and check out the link below: Monster Miki Addict
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#36
13-08-2009, 08:34 AM
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Maybe something that makers could consider or would seem to be a good opportunity for some enterprising person to come up with a good alternative. Zen
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#37
13-08-2009, 08:43 AM
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No hard feelings mate, we all are in the same boat on this subject (more or less).
Cheers and good fishing to all I agree Alex, Good to see that a debate can take place on here without turning into a nasty fight. Atleast this topic, is leading me towards a certain caree path. Regards ff
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#38
13-08-2009, 08:56 AM
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Let's also bring this back to the basics. This thread is about all fishing tournaments Australia-wide. It just happens to be slightly bream and Vic biased cause it's my personal experience and this is a bream forum. Yes, I'm aware that there are much bigger problems threatening the success of our fishing future such as commercial fishing and kill comps, but I suspect a discussion about such things would yield much common ground on our thoughts and not tell us anything new. Also it's good and well to say that at least we're better than previous generations and we're within the law, etc, but as a Gen Y, I am not able to compare first hand to previous practices and perhaps have higher expectations. C&R comp fishing has many benefits and I don't want to see it disappear. This thread is just a forum for questioning whether it's being run as best as possible and ensuring that the bottom line is our fish and not the $$$. Brad McDonald, 'sustainable' in the context I was referring too relates to environment and communities. This includes the fish, the natural surrounds and the lifestyles of the local communities involved. The financial survivability of the comps is a separate issue yet it is indirectly affected by how future comps are run and perceived by the community. ForsterFisho, your replies are excellent and much appreciated. Your unbiased and thought-provoking replies are the sort of discussion I was looking for. Thanks! Cheers. Powderfish
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#39
13-08-2009, 12:32 PM
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Wow took me so long to read all that, many good point great discussion guys, but have to agree that with all the local town comps that there are many more species being hammerd much hard then bream, Here in Coffs Habour there is Coffs habrour Fishing Club which has its BRE,Deep Sea, Game Fishing comps most are held every 2 weeks some being each week, and theres also the Green House traven BRE comp every week, and its disgusting to see how fish get killed here every week small or not, the only real thing that I personaly think could have positive impact on fishing over all would be to have the Current Bag limits of all fish halved and then some more probly, thats what id do if i was head of Fisheries, hhhmmm maybe ill join the fisheres... could be possilbe in 15-20 years of hard work ....
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#40
13-08-2009, 08:05 PM
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??
Powderfish,
First of all you don't need to tell me which comments I can and cannot write. Both are absolutely correct, unlike the dribble comming from you who has no experience with C&R comps. Like I said comps have no effect on catch rates after comps. I mentioned the rivers I fish and caught 20 plus fish in both systems within a week/fortnight of a comp and regualry do over summer in particular. I could also add Lake Macquarie, Tweed and Hawkesbury Rivers to those as well. Have fished them before after and during comps. I have found it easier to catch fish in all these waterways after comps than during comps. COMPS DO NOT AFFECT CATCH RATES, at least on the East coast of NSW in the rivers I fish anyway. Another point is that during a comp catching 10 fish per boat is difficult and rarely boats outside the top 10 account for full bags on both days. The reason is that Bream are reasonably smart and the fish do "shut down" and become difficult to catch when 50+ boats are throwing lures around the same area. The fish are there just become less active, the fish settle down once the boat traffic resides. So during comp its hard to catch fish, after comp becomes easier. I don't know what further information you want. I can post photos, but that dosn't prove when I caught them. I asked for some of the "good arguements against tournements" to be posted, still haven't seen one from you. Reason is because you have based you opinions and anything you have written on hearsay only. You like fosterfisho's reply's because you feel it gives you some vindication, yet anyone who post information on actual observation you choose to disregard. Fosterfisho raises a point about fish being taken 20 km's down a bumpy road. Whilst not ideal I can assure you once again fish swim off quite well in good knick. Fish for the aquarium trade are caught in South Amercia a shipped all over the world, these fish are far more delicate than bream. I have transported Aquarium fish 100's of KM in a plastic bag and introduced them to a totally new environment and they have lived happily for years. Tagging is also brought up, it takes a cetain skill to ensure a tag is correctly placed in a fish, an incorrect tag can be fatal. I have tagged oceanic species but not bream personally. Tagging also has a reliance on people actually knowing what to do with a tagged fish once they catch one, who the average bait bream fisho or commercial fisho do anything with a tag? The rivers up here flood on regular basis, the water salinity and PH change quickly and I have caught bream in water that tastes almost fresh. It would also seem logical that the fish are moved serveal kilometers overnight with little effect to thier health. Like I said before go fish a comp and form some opinions of your own. Like you I am also passionate about fish and ensure those I return, are returned to the water in the best possible condition. Regards, Regards,
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#41
13-08-2009, 11:12 PM
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Troutbum
---Quote---
I have transported Aquarium fish 100's of KM in a plastic bag and introduced them to a totally new environment and they have lived happily for years. ---End Quote--- I hope you are talking about 'aquariums' and not natural environments. 'Experts' such as you need to be aware of the fish translocation laws that are in place to protect our fisheries from ruination by introduced species. If I have misread your initial quote I apologise, but for those that release introduced aquarium fish into our waterways, they need to be shot with a pellet of their own sh!t. As to your views on comp fishing and the effects? I see no proven data either, just hearsay to back up your own point of view. Have you done the research to measure the effects of bream being released in areas other than where they were captured (in each system) or is your opinion based on your observations as are mine? Can you at least point me to some peer reviewed scientific papers that back up what you are saying? No? Well despite the fact that I may well agree with you about releasing bream elsewhere causing no harm based on my personal experience, you cannot criticise ForsterFisho for using his personal experiences to make a statement. In essence you cannot criticise someone for a lack of scientific merit by yourself using evidence that lacks scientific merit. Also criticising everyone that posted before you by saying their posts were 'dribble' and then offering nothing but drivel yourself, is not a recipe for winning the debate. As to having to try a competition before judging it..... are you for real dude? By the time I was 5y.o. I already knew the answer to that one. That is the most facile of arguments. A lot of us on here don't fish comps, will never fish comps, don't read about comps, and don’t care about comps. While I personally I have remained silent as it is only my opinion and something I am comfortable to feel/keep to myself for the most part, for me competition fishing is the lowest form of our past time. It just seems to bring out the worst in so many people. The debate here has been about whether competition fishing is sustainable. So far it smacks of those with a self interest in competition fishing acting all self righteous in their defence of their ‘sport’. They seem to attack anyone that holds a differing opinion and state that their competition has no negative effects. If they were honest and thoughtful they would at least realise that everything we do in the realm of nature has both positive and negative impacts and there is always a trade off between the two. The notion that 40-50 boats roaring up and down a waterway for three days, hooking hundreds of fish, leaving behind kilograms of lead, line and hooks, fumes, causing damage to the banks through wash erosion, ruining the ambiance for other water users and more; are not going to have a negative impact is seriously deluded at best. Perhaps the economic injection into the community outweighs the negatives when all is said and done. Either way it’s an interesting topic that I had never given a second thought and maybe one that the tournament organisers can turn into a positive by donating time or money into some sort of habitat restoration work and publicising the work done. Tight lines TB PS- fishing for spawning fish is like shooting ducks on the nest!!!*G* At least in the trout world. A problem that needs to be resolved as it is a huge target for those that would abolish fishing tournaments and fishing in general. ************** Troutbum, Yes, I am talking about Aquarium fish kept in aquariums often had to travel to purchase fish I wanted. Breed African and South American Cichlids for years, in tanks in garage. Agree people who do the wrong thing in this area should be shot with a pellet of there own Sh!t. Its funny, people offer opinions based on personal observation and they cop the "so called experts" tag. I stand by every observation as true. My views on Comp fishing are based on fishing plenty of tournements over the past few of years and fishing these waterways regulary after. In fact I catch more fish in more fish in them now then I did prior to comp fishing. Not critising people for their own views, just sharing mine. IMO it is dribble, Powderfish has based all his info on hearsay, says he has heard some really good arguments nothing he has actually observed, I would love to hear these. I have travelled all over the East Coast and mixed with lots of different people and have never heard any community outrage or concern over comps. There are always plenty of members of the community there at the weigh in's and I have only ever heard positive comments. Once again pardon me for sharing actual observations. So you think my comments are self righteous regarding my "sport". Whether there are tournements or not I would still fish as much either way. But I have based my comments I what I have observed. I could take the alternate view, maybe powderfish stuggles to catch a fish and is concerned comps will make it harder for him, geez that would be self righteous wouldn't it  . but I would dare mention that for fear of retribtuion.There is at least 50 boats roaring up and down our waterways most weekends and a comp once or twice a year makes little difference. In the school holidays double that for just about every day of the week. Must be alot quieter in Tassie, good luck to you. The damage done by poor farm practices and poorly manged flood waters far out weighs any impact rec fishos could ever have.We have had fish kills from "acid Sulfate" run off that killed everything from sharks to guppies with hundreds of tons of fish killed in 2001 and 2007. Both time the river was closed for 6 months to all forms of fishing, Dead fish were pilled knee deep along the foreshore and council had semi trailers in removing dead fish. Guess what on a summers morning it is quite easy to catch 20 Bream and the river is alive with fish again. So forgive me when a get a bit narky when some one says that C&R fishing have a impact on local fish stocks. You also have a dig around the " give it a go and judge". Although you were the worlds smartest 5yo, I think its valid. Go and have look at how the fish are released and cared for by anglers, see how many swim away or just float there. Particapte and see how anglers treat fish. Much better than the kill and grill comps where every thing with a legal size is killed for points. I guess you didn't see my first post in relation the alternative, kill and grill comps which are help regulary, sometimes monthly by numerous clubs along the east coast. Seems as though it is fine for people with no first hand exposure to be critical and for those who have participated, they shouldn't be passionate for fear of being branded self serving and "expert". Regards, Last edited by stompy; 13-08-2009 at 11:18 PM.
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#42
13-08-2009, 11:47 PM
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nice one
Hey Stompy
I removed my post within 5 mins of posting for not wanting to create a fight. I reread it a couple of times and thought ...just let it go....but obviously you just want an argument as you cut and paste it from your email... As to picking off your rebuttal bit by bit its just a waste of time. You are just going to try and do the same with each point I make and on and on we will go with no resolution in our immediate future.  My point about 50 boats is to point out that regardless of how careful you think you may be with your boat and the fish; your actions have affects. Whether you like it or not, and now matter how you attempt to justify it, your comps have negative effects just as much as they hove positive ones. As to C&R I haven't killed a fish in perhaps 15 years being a professional guide working in Australia, New Zealand and the USA. During that time I have released tens of thousands of fish. Even so, I am realistic about it and realise that with all my warm and fuzzy good intentions; some released fish will die and that's taking into account that 99% of my fish are released immediately. Keep them in a livewell all day during summer with low DO while flying around at warp factor ten with my gas guzzling bass boat at max revs; and a higher percentage of those 'carefully' handled but released fish, will probably die. Failing to recognise and acknowledge any of the negative aspects of the sport may gain you some traction here on a website dedicated to bream fishing, but I guarantee your 'opinions' will be treated a little differently by the community at large. Particularly the green anti-fishing fraternity that grow in number with each passing day that modern man becomes more isolated from the food chain in their concrete jungles. Then again you guys have the one truly environmentally pure event on the planet. Maybe you should get the job running PR for the new and clean Melbourne GP.  Ciao and tight lines....
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#43
13-08-2009, 11:51 PM
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Ok guys, Seems to be getting off thread off here.
Is comp fishing sustainable. As my understanding of the topic goes, we are discussing is comp fishing sustainable. Not the effects of acid sulphate soils, the effects of pro fishing, the effects of recreational fisher's and other tangiable factors. Obviously there is a lack of scientific peer reviewed data - I've had briefly scanned some of the scientific data bases i can access (via uni) and have found nothing on the effects of comps. If this was to be researched in reality. The study would take years, as there is far too many variables to isolate and research individually then apply to a whole overview of the study. How ever, I think it is fair to say that comp fishing will have an impact of the environment. If a natural occurying resourse is disturbance by an outside influence than it has been effected, and therefore impacted. I am not saying that there isnt other activities that are not havin an impact on the ecosystem. As i said before, due to the lack of peer reviewed data and only the hear say and first hand experiances of people that have differing views upon comp fishing and fishing in general it will be very hard for an answer to come for this topic of discussion. As when peoples observations and oppinions are taken into consideration, bias needs to be taken into consideration, for example if a person has never fished a comp, or done little fishing, and they read the media about depletion of resources, they probaly would considering rec fishing bad. If somebody that has fished plenty of comps and won an amount of prizes and has no directly observed any thing bad from comps, then this person would consider comp fishing good. There is no right or wrong here. It was mentioned that transporting fish for an aquarium had no negative effect on fish. I believe this was targetted at saying fish being transported has no effect (which is highyl doubtable). it is not saying that transporting one species to a different environment is ok. (this isnt - cane toads are example and so is didymo) So in conclusion, I think people replying to this thread should by now realise that data is hard to come by, experiments would be costly, problematic and long to carry out and peoples oppinions can be clouded by bias and others hear say. Hope this doesnt offend anybody, as its not meant to. Now back to calculus. ff
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#44
13-08-2009, 11:56 PM
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Timing is everything..where were you an hour ago?
I would rather do calculus than argue on a forum among my fellow fisherman...*G* I'm off to photograph some mayfly before we lose the midday sun.....
Last edited by trout_bum; 13-08-2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: extra info
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#45
14-08-2009, 12:14 AM
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Comp
Trout Bum,
I have a hide like a Walrus, usually nothing worries me to much. Just passionate about both fish and fishing. Foster Fisho, Just trying to put some perspective around impact of C&R fishing as opposed to major enviromental, with the point being if a river can recover from this twice a bit of comp pressure will have little impact. I don't usually get fiesty on these boards, some comments hit a nerve. The Walrus has calmed!! Cheers PS -- TB, that power bream finesse is going strong !
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