Four stroke vs Two Stroke ???

[Cloud 9]

trouty
ficht injection was stolen technology for BMW thats what sunk OMC.

ficht is deferent from ETEC. ficht is fuel injection bolted onto old naturaly asperated engines, (fuel/oil injected together )

ETEC is next generation technology and the engines are based on an aircraft engine the spec for ETEC is that they get 80HP per cylinder then govern them back to requiered HP
75 and 90HP 3 cylinder ETEC's are 240HP engines governed by the onboard computer, they recon that these engines will rev to 10,500 RPM with the stops removed. thats how they intend for these things to last the time. if the engines not working hard it will last a long time, like 200Kw 4cylinder car is going to stuff up quicker than a 200Kw V8 thats the though thats gone into these new ETEC's
even looking at the internal specs on these engines you can understand why they have faith in ETEC , pistins rods crank are all the same spec as the 175HP johno, same water pump. V4 gearbox, these are all heavy duty bits for 40HP to 90HP.
by 2006 they will all be ETEC johnos in the 2stroke range.

there is a 90HP ETEC being evaluated by Wayne Kempe in QLD Fishing monthly at the moment, its on the back of his new boat, castaway 2.

[Ajax]

Cloud 9, I have no axe to grind either way and feel that both 4 and 2 stroke have a place in the market today.

I was curious about you saying that the ETEC is more economical than the 4's. When you say this are you referring to a marginal difference only? because my new 4 stroke is unbelievable with fuel efficiency and gives me 50% more running time than my old 1990 model Merc 2stroke.

There is no doubt the 2's have more stick behind them but it seems almost incredible to think they were much more efficient on the fuel over that of the 4 strokes.

Cheers,
Ajax

[tonyp]

Ajax,

this is a bit taken off a thread about Two-strokes not E-tecs,but if you want the rest of the thread it was to long to post in here . But will give you the link if you want it. Just some figures by whom he is I do not know.
---------------------------------

4/7/04 6:51:00 PM Submitted by 2 stroke ron (67.201.70.127) from VIRGINIA says For Mark & anyone who wants to know
Total Emissions gr./kw hr. Evinrude E-TEC 90HP 2 STROKE vs Honda 90 & Yahama 90 4 Stroke . gm/kw hr of HC+NOx - E-TEC 16.8 , Honda 16.82 , Yahama 16.84. gr/kw hr of CO- E-TEC 69.8 , Honda 187.9 , Yahama 211.8. Fuel on 180C Blue wave boat- at idle - E-TEC 13.8MPG, Yahama7.7MPG-- 1000RPM E-TEC12.7,Yahama8.1, 3000RPM- E-TEC 7.6, Yahama7.1, 5000RPM E-TEC 6.4, Yahama6.4MPG. Sound level 50HP E-TEC vsYahama 50HP 4 Stroke. Quieter at idle at cruise & WOT. Fuel E-Tec 50HP at idle 39.9MPG,Yahama 11.9MPG. 1000RPM e-TEC 26.6, Yahama 10.8. 3000RPM E-TEC 7.9, Yahama 5.7. WOT E-TEC 6.9MPG, Yahama 8.8MPG. Speed not listed but I bet E-TEC was faster at WOT. All tests should be made at speed and not RPM.Some day they will realize that. 2 Stroke Ron

[Ajax]

Thanks Tony, I would be suspicous of these figures as they are recorded at idle and I am sure a whole lot changes under load. I actually are not too mechanically minded and would not be confident enough to debate this. I am sure these days the differences are marginal and it simply boils down to which model you like and for personal taste and needs more so then anything else. All I know is that my new 4 stroke Johno is amazing on the fuel consumption and runs on the sniff of an oily rag.

Cheers,
Ajax

Cloud 9

by 2006 they will all be ETEC johnos in the 2stroke range

Maybe your right - but in a news release in BIN (Boat industry News magazine) late in 2003 - Bombadier claimed that Evinrude would be their 2 stroke engine line with Etec - and Johnston would remain their 4 stroke engine line! (at the present their 4 strokes are currently actually suzuki 4 strokes painted in Johnson livery colors!).

As far as injection of oil straight into the wear points - you are missing a fundamental aspect of 2 stroke technology.

The cranckcase of ANY 2 stroke engine isn't sealed from the exhaust - the air is inducted thru the cranckcase and the exhaust is expelled thru the cranckcase via the ports in the cylinder walls.

2 strokes don't have a sealed sump like a 4stroke does to contain and recycle the oil used for lubrication.

The cylinder walls have 2 ports in them, one port for induction of air (in the case of etek, and the induction of oil laden fuel air mix in standard 2 strokes) and one port for the expulsion of exhaust gasses. A 4 stroke would achieve this thru use of it's head and inlet / exhaust valves/ohead cam, not via the sump as a 2 stroke does.

This is the reason 2 strokes are lighter and more reliable for marine use with less moving parts!

This ingress of air for combustion process and then the egress of the resultant exhaust gas in a 2 stroke - then goes out the hub of the prop into the water along with the exhaust gasses.

If you inject oil into that cranckcase - then some of it must get expelled with the exhaust gas into the water, since the oil keeps getting injected, and more is added to top up the tank on the engine for injection at each fuel up stop or as required and theres nothing to keep the injected oil in the cranckcase with the air passing thru and exhaust gasses also passing thru.

Wheres this oil go?

It's not combusted?

Then it's exhausted...into the water plain n simple.

If it's a vegetable based bio degradeable oil then no problemo - I wouldn't be against eteks use in inland waterways.

If it's a polluting mineral based lubricating oil - then it's a different kettle of fish, our inland waterways are already under enough stress from pollution, elevated water temps, excess nutrients, algal blooms, fish mass mortalities and so on, they DON'T need any additional pollution from 2 strokes IMHO.

No one can deny Etek technology may be a great technological advance in 2 strokes, and I've already suggested many times that they probably will be great engines for use in the ocean due to their favourable power to weight ratio and the gains that allows in boatbuilding design.

I still maintain that we would be better off without them in our inland waterways.

I still maintain that it's "false advertising" to claim they are cleaner than an equivalent 4 stroke when talking only about exhaust gas analysis of emissions that totally gnores the liquid oil emissions from those engines.

Basically it IS lieing by omission - telling only half the truth in order to decieve consumers on environmental issues.

Let em extoll all the benefits of etek all they like, the bit where I draw the line is when thay make FALSE statements about their 4 stroke oppositions product, based on only telling half the truth about their own product.

If they want to play those games, I'm more than happy to trip them up.

At the end of the day if we want our kids and our kids kids to keep on breaming in our inland waterways we need to phase out 2 stroke OB's with their polluting oil emissions, as a start - maybe one day 4 strokes will also have to goand it will end up electric only waters - who knows,but if we don't start soon - it will all come to a head sooner than later.

Personally - I 'd like to think my kids will be able to catch bream in the Blackwood when they are my age. The way things are going with pollution, pumping the underground water, netting, marine park no fishing zones in the Hardy Inlet, Algal Blooms, salt from the wheatbelt, and so on - it's pretty unlikely they will be able to, and use of oil polluting 2 stroke OB's is only hastening that process.

I figure breamers if anyone should be at the forefront of protecting out future fishery resource. It's called leading by example.

Cheers!

[Cloud 9]

i think you are missing the point here trouty, these engines be it ETEC or 4stroke all have to pass the same test that the EU set out ( European Union ) europe has the most strict guidlines for any manufaturer to meet before they can sell their wares. America is following there lead. a test is a test it cant be fugged.
you also asume that 2 stroke oil is non combustible. i have a lot of aquaintences in the boating industry, both on the boat building side and the engine side as well . I'm not a technition but I here lots from both sides of the fence so to speak, and i ask a hole crap load of questions from the people in the know .
all the info i have on the ETEC is from the head guys at Bomderier and and from machinics attached to them. i was also ivolved with water testing the first ETEC 90Hp in Australia.the stats on paper at the moment are amazing , the warranty is impressive.300hr or 3Years and NO serviceing, but they still would like to have a look at the 100hr and 200hr mark at no cost, or so im told.
the hole base of the debate was 4 Stroke V 2 Stroke, MY Honest opinion is that if you want a 4stroke because you troll at idle all day thats possibly the way to go or if you are in two minds about which 1 to get id get the 2stroke , there are lots of for and againsts, but the ones that get my attention are weight and perfomance, next maybe fuel, i don't usually worry about fuel because if you cant afford you don't have it.
have compared 4's and 2stroke on the same hull.4 stroke was quieter at idle but struggled to get the boat on the plain . the top end speed was a bit slower but wot there was minamal noise deference. for the cost of the 4 strokes arround today id buy a ETEC very closely priced.

but at the end of the day theres always going to be someone who can find fault in somthing, or somone who has deferent needs or requirements from an OB.

Trouty you and I need to get a beer buddy, i think were two deferent sides of the coin, ( Both have deferent veiws )

Di Hydrogen Monoxide!!

You can quote the European and American emissions standrads until your blue in ther face- the fact is these tests are both conducted with an exhaust GAS analyser, which totally ignores the output of LIQUID oil thru the prop hub inthe case of the Etek 2 cycle engine figures quotyed - only HALF the story is being told a deliberate lie by omission.

Now back to DHMO

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
* Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
* Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
* Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
* Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
* Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

* as an industrial solvent and coolant.
* in nuclear power plants.
* in the production of styrofoam.
* as a fire retardant.
* in many forms of cruel animal research.
* in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
* as an additive in certain junk-foods and other food products.

I understand that a recent chemical composition analysis found DHMO in our city water supply! I've heard that if you're exposed to it, you can wash your hands for ten minutes and still not be rid of all the DHMO.

Get the Full Story here: http://www.dhmo.org/
And please -- do all that you can to spread the word about DHMO.

Ohhh yeah, it's in beer as well, but what the heck Cloud 9 I'd still drink a couple with ya - whattaya say?

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

I am begining to understand your point of view and think you do have a lot of knowledge on the subject. For what it is worth I reckon the problem you have is that in stating your views on anti 2 stroke so hard you have got most people off side. lets face it approx 90% of OB owners have 2 strokes and don't want to hear someone telling them they are polluting maniacs! or something along those lines.

Re the 4 stroke power situation mine is a Johno 60 pushing a 500Kg rig plus an additional average of 210Kg people weight. My motor gets on the plane very well at around 5 seconds on half throttle and max's out at 40MPH at 5500rpm. Appart from skiing I can not see where I need any more speed and in my case the donk was offered at the same price point as a standard Mariner 2 stroke.

What is surprising, and will be surprising to the avid 2 stroke supporters on this forum is that evry time I am at the boat ramp I get at least 1 but mostly 2-3 people come up and say that they are very impressed with how quite the motor is and just last weekend I had the honour of being the only one out of half a dozen fisho's in tinies without a smoking motor at start and idle before taking off. The others noticed this and made some positive comments.

Now I am not anti 2stroke but I have to admit the more I use my 4s the more I am liking it.

Cheers all,
Ajax

[Cloud 9]

where r you trouty im on the gold coast/beenleigh/ QLD
you got tooooo much spare time on your hands, you need an electric boat.
no fallout so to speak.

re

For what it is worth I reckon the problem you have is that in stating your views on anti 2 stroke so hard you have got most people off side. lets face it approx 90% of OB owners have 2 strokes and don't want to hear someone telling them they are polluting maniacs!

I hear ya Ajax, however,

I've always been proud to post what I believe is "the truth" no matter how "unpopular" it might make me... I've been popular and it aint all it's cracked up to be - if to be popular you have to tell people what they want to hear rather than what you personally believe to be the truth, then to hell with it IMHO.

I'd sooner people 'respect' me as someone who 'calls em as they see em' than some apologist who's opinion is for sale to the highest bidder (bin there dun that). It's ONE of the reasons I dont bother with sponsorships.

I take a great many unpopular stances on a great range of subjects, and it always fails to win friends or influence people, but that goes with the territory.

Let truth be your shield, thats why i'm so difficult to debate / argue with - when i get my teeth into an issiue where truth is on my side, I won't let go - I'm like a terrier...I'll shake it until I break it!

Yes a great many folks have 2 strokes and truthfullyI've owned a few myself. If thats all you have - then thats what you have to use.

Still doesn't make it the best solution tho for people contemplating a new OB purchase- my advice will always be whatever I truthfully believe will be best for them and the environment.

It'd be "interesting to know what the Bream comps "official policy" is with regard to future use of 2 strokes in comps?.

I've referred to that exact question a couple times now in the hope organisers would pick up the issue and run with it.

Probably it hasn't been an issue until now and it'd be a lot easier if it never became an issue which is probably why my comments have been gnored thus far.

BUT.

Breamers and the comps are probably supposed to be leading by example.

In environemental stakes at least - how is it that we can insist someone stops commercial netting to ssave the bream while at the sa,me time being part of the pollution problem causing downturnin bream recruitment numbers in that same river with our 2 strokes? it hypocritical really..and just ONE of the reasons bream organiusers should probably think about biting the bullet and aiming to move toward 4 stroke only comps in say 5 yrears or something ans a long term policy goal.

Of course you can't stop people using the OB they have now - but IF members knew what the official policy was goin to be 5 years hence they could bear that in mind in their OB purchasing decisions betwixt now & then.

To bury our heads and hope the problem just goes away is plain silly - the mass mortalities in the swan are our wake up call that all is not well with our rivers health - and while I'm in favour of restocking, it alone isn't the only be all answer if 2 stroke oils helping to kill off the natural recruitment and stocked juveniles.

It's a BIG issue that the industry is hoping will go away, just like govt is hoping pollution of our waterways and power water shortages etc will likewise go away.

The bad news is these things don't just go away unless we give em a helping hand - and purchase deciusions being made NOW will influence the amount of tcw3 two stroke oil that go into our river for probably the next 20 years.

Better that people make the right OB buying choices now if we want to see the improvements in 20 years time in the rivers health.

Anyway - it's been done to death....but it was fun hile it lasted!

Cheers!

[fishmania]

interesting that outboard manufacturers say how much more economical four strokes are than two strokes but if you read the comparisions at certain rev ranges there is very little difference ie around the 3500-4000 range sure if they are full throtle or at hump speed there is a large difference but I believe they use conveniant statistics combined with extra weight extra services four strokes become a luxury for quieter running .there is no doubt the modern twostroke are much smoother and more economical than those of the past but the time is coming where we need to stop poluting our inland waterways which will be the final demise of two strokes. my 2bobs worth FISHMANIA

a boating board yet, where a 4stroke versus 2 stroke debates doesn't go to at least 20 pages plus!

I reckon Warren knows this! When things are a little quiet - a 4 stroke Versus 2 stroke thread will get em all fired up every time!


Sheesh - this threads tame, I've seen some where people threaten to come around with baseball bats for some attitudinal readjustement!.

I'd say this threads got a ways to go yet!

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Fishmania, I started out with a balanced preference for 2's & 4's but now that I own a 4 I can say absolutely that the 4 is more fuel efficient. My brother bought a Merc a couple of Months ago and paid extra for the more technologically advanced system and even he says that whilst the merc has more get up and go, he would have prefered to of bought a 4 stroke like mine.

No matter what the stats say or what the glossy brochure pitches at the end of the day you cant beat having one in hand to try in practice.

Trouty, you sound like a grumpy bastard but I think your views are ahead of time and dare I admit it, you have won me over.

Lets keep our waters clean and start educating the two stroke brumby's that smoke and oil up our playground.

Cheers, Ajax the reformed 2 stroker!

[Backfire]

From Soundings Dailey E News
Bombardier takes E-TEC up to 250 hp

STUART, Fla. — Bombardier Recreational Products Tuesday unveiled its line of big — 200-, 225- and 250-hp — Evinrude E-TEC direct-injection 2-stroke outboards at a press preview at the Ralph Evinrude Test Center here.

BRP expects to roll out a saltwater edition of the big-horsepower V-6 E-TECs; a freshwater version targeted for pontoon, deck and aluminum fishing boats; and high-output models of the 200 and 225 for tournament bass and walleye anglers by November — in time for the 2005 model year, said Karl Sandstrom, product manager.

BRP introduced the first of its E-TEC engines last fall. They were two-cylinder 40-, 50- and 60-hp and three-cylinder 75- and 90-hp models. Still to come are E-TEC outboards in 9.9, 15, 25, 30, 100, 135, 150 and 175 hp.

“It’s going to be a complete engine lineup,� says Sandstrom. Despite BRP’s December sale to an investment group that includes members of the Bombardier family, the E-TEC rollout remains on schedule, says Roch Lambert, executive vice president for sales, marketing and product development. Most of the line should be out by summer 2006, he said.

Bombardier is touting its E-TEC 2-stroke technology as more than able to challenge head-on its principal outboard competition — 4-stroke technology. It says E-TEC is cleaner, lighter, more-efficient, lower-maintenance and as powerful as any existing technology, including 4-stroke.

The engine-maker says E-TECs require no scheduled maintenance for three years or 300 recreational hours, including gearcase lube.

“Many, many times we’ve heard, ‘It’s a 4-stroke world,’ � says Lambert. “More than 50 percent [of outboard s] are not 4-stroke.� He expects to woo those 2-stroke devotees and a share of the 4-stroke world as well to E-TEC.

“We’ve done our homework on this thing,� he says. “We think it’s a pretty darned good mousetrap.�

— Jim Flannery
jflan983@aol.com

Backfire Clean up those 4 strokes lads!

Wrong!

Cheers!