More Officers

[Yardi]

I know this topic has been put up many times on this site, but what I have seen lately really P's me off.
I am talking about the taking of undersize Bream from our River systems.
I was under the Canning Bridge yesterday and watched three Gentleman of foriegn descent, catching Bream, which were clearly undersize and popping them straight into thier buckets. It wasnt just one either, I must have seen at least half a dozen. They were fishing on the platform below I was in my boat, I advised them politely to release them, but they pleaded ignorance. There was a few young kids fishing under there as well and they were watching these guys, I let the kids know not to follow these dudes examples and if they caught fish and wanted to keep them, they needed to measure them and ensure they were legal. These other guys were only setting one example PILLAGE at all cost.
I have seen so much of this lately, I have nothing against anyone taking fish for a feed, providing they are size and bag limits are adhered to, but these people are just way over the top.

I completed Fisheries Officer trainning, but decided not to pursue it as a career. I am fully aware of the numbers to ring to report these people and to take number plates etc. This as everyone knows is very difficult sometimes and does the the Department follow up, Not often me thinks. They are to busy looking after the commercial sector (not the Officers fault THATS POLITICS).
Until the Government allocates more Officers this will continue, Officers need to be seen more, all along the Swan and start to make examples of these people in the courts. It is bad enough that our rivers are polluted and netted, add lots of folk taking undersize fish and we are not looking to good.

What could be done is to officiate or Deputise certain people that spend alot of time on and around the system i.e. responsible anglers and give them the power at least to put the wind up these people. Alas this wont happen due to the Government Red Tape attatched.
I seriously believe it wont be long till violence occurs over this, as there are alot of passionate people out there who may not have a diplomatic approach to this behaviour. I do not condone this, they need to be prosecuted and INGORANCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BREAKING THE LAW.
Well I have vented my spleen, we live in hope
Yardi

[BIG PETE]

i think there should be more Fisheries Officers they should be out on weekends they only time i have seen them on weekends is at abalone season then they are every where
i to have rung them many times with rego numbers of these idiots that are keeping undersized fish dont know if any of them got fined
the thing that makes me mad is these people know they are doing the wrong thing and they dont care a bloody big fine might wake them up i think or maybe a punch in the mouth

[Bear]

I believe now the guys on the water are now also fisheries or have the fisheries powers. Would be good to see them drop by a few spots as well.

[angler 3.55]

wat we should start doin wen we see this is go up to them and throw the fish back in the water

[Yardi]

Yes Bear, you are correct, But!!!!, I saw these guys go under the bridge 6 times yesterday, I attempted to attract there attention, unfortunately to no avail, they were a bit busy with the Radar Gun.
When the the Fisheries amalgamated with DPI, there were many disgrunteld employee's in both departments. The DPI guys had to study and pass Fisheries trainning and visa versa, there were quite a few redundencies. Fisheries personel, didnt really want to be out there booking people for no flares etc. Most Fisheries people join the department, because they actually care about whats happening in the water and are interested in educating the public to do the righty. But with the joining of the two Departments, Officers spend alot of time fining people for not having correct safety gear, speeding etc. and not protecting our fish stocks. It probably made good sense to the powers that be to have only one Department as whilst Officers are checking boats for illegal fish etc, they can also check safety gear etc.
Theres just not enough Officers to get out and cover all areas, so basically we need more legs on the ground, without a heap of pressure from voters I dont see this happening IMO
Yardi

I've seen the Fisheries dudes here in Mandurah a couple times in recent weeks.

They were right up the Murray river, near Pelcan point one day and gave me a wave as they went past!

Then Sunday they were down at Bouvard Cut in the marina getting fuel.

Realistcally speaking their boats about similar size & weight to mine, 25 - 28 ft and probably weighs 4 tonnes - it's NOT the easiest of beasts to maneouver around in the confines of a small river where you might find a lot of breamers!

I just don't think they have the manpower these days to walk the river banks etc - or putt putt around in dingy's like they may have done once upon a time.

Thats probably why freshwater anglers and breamers don't see a lot of Fisheries dudes! Of course they also have to do the transport role as well so probably their paper work has doubled also!

You know somethig we may just have to face is that - we don't have the sort of public service we had 20 years ago - it is nowdays just bare bones staffing.

Even the police these days seem to concentrate on pretty much crimes against the person - and to not be all that interested in crimes against property, for the same reasons we don't see a lot of fisheries dudes in freshwater and rivers!

Thats just how it is!

It's not like license revenues from breaming can afford to employ 4 dedicated fisheries officers is it?

Just where would all these funds to police the bream size & bag limit rules come from?

More and more we are going to head towards 'user pays'.

Over the weekend at night - during a security patrol - we spotted a marine distress flare! I phoned the police and handed in the details. They sent a car - and we pointed out exactly where we'd seen it!

They went off to investigate!

We knocked off work a few minutes later - and went down to the same beach to see if we could lend a hand with any search, or perhaps go get our boat, if a rescue was needed etc.

So we find the police car bogged on the beach and tow them out -with the 4wd and they went off onto another job!

We were still worried about the flare in case someone was out there swimming with the sharks! We went to exactly where we'd seen the flare fired from and sure enough - dead flare casing on the ground, and a P platers commodore parked in the dunes where they'd gone fishing down the beach! A wheelie bin dragged all over the carpark behind their car and destroyed - rubbish everywhere along with skid marks!

(& Yes I passed on the car rego and flare casings to the police!).

Just kids out mucking around - but that was 2 nights in a row they had let off flares, out on a rock groyne - pretending to be a boat in distress on the water and causing police time to be wasted (not to mention mine).

If you think how much of legitimate officers time is wasted by young hooligan kids, you can appreciate maybe why Fisheries dudes time is precious! Maybe they get to waste a lot of time on hoax type calls too!

Maybe if they didn't have to contend with such crap they would have more time for legitimate patrols etc.

The one thing I did learn from the incident is that the police are so damn busy with these hoaxes that if you ARE in trouble out on the water and you don't have a epirb, then you better not be relying on your flares because - no one gives a hoot!!!

If a flare is sighted - the police response is to drive to the water near where they THINK it was set off - and point their headlights out to sea - and see if anyone fires another flare - if not - write the incident off and go to the next job on their ever lengthening list!

I asked them if they would call the volunteer sea rescue and they said no - not unless they spotted a flare themselves! (And also that the VSR don't work nights! even on long weekends!).

So without someone reporting you overdue and a epirb being detected - you cannot now rely on anyone helping you out if you set off a flare!

When you think how quickly people die from hypothermia, in the colder months, these delays can and will cost someone their life eventually IMHO!

But you have to have some sympathy for the embattled officers whos time gets wasted with non important or hoax calls etc.

I'm sure Fisheries suffer under the same problems of insufficient staff and resources / funding to do the job as we would like it done and a lot of idiots wasting the precious rescources they do have!!

I know what I'd like to do to those kids in the commodore who let off flares from the end carpark of the Dawesville cut Sunday night about 1230 am, and who had me out still searching till 3 am!

I can tell you now - they would be MUCH better off if the police get to them first!

What sort of idiot kid does something as stupid as that????
Probably stole the flares from someones boat!

When someone dies because of it, likely they will think it was funny!

Cheers!

[DAGGA]

I find this really interesting!
I personally want to be a fisheries officer and i keep hearings its a hard field to get into because there simply isnt many positions availeble! Its something i never understood because like you say you barely see them out in force and you would think with it being a big problem and soo much stuff slipping under there nose they would employ more people to make sure people dont breach the regulations...

To me it seems like the government pure and simply doesnt wanna put that much effort into conserving fish numbers or looking after them in general and just throw money at things that look like they are doing something big and fancy to help but really they are just making a big flashy smoke screen trying to dellude us into thinking they are actually helping. I dunno much about politics and i dont want to generalise but you have to admit we have all seen these acts of pillaging and we see more of that then we see fisheries officers getting around so wouldnt it be logical to even the odds and put more people out there to increase the chances or prosicution. The government wouldnt be that vague that they dont see it happening its just a matter of turning the other cheek for there own benefit.

This really "bugs" me (to put it lightly) because i want to go through the effort of University and all the courses i need to do on the slim chance of finding work in this field to make a difference.

Im not a violent person at all and im always smiling but one thing that turns me red is seeing fish being killed even within bag limits when clearly the people dont need that many fish for the next few days but i respect that they are atleast staying within the law. When i see other people that arent or just kill fish for the fun and just mutilate them for fun, even toad fish, i cant help but say something, not aggressively but something atleast because i think steam would come out my ears if turned the other cheek and this is clearly the passion the government is lacking....

P.S: Yardi PM Sent

[PMac]

Yardi its the same guys who are at it all the time.... Same cars parked there... Taking more than the limit and undersize... Ive had a few choice words to them regarding the future fish stocks... Low lives just dont give a rats.

Please don't give up your passion to make a difference and do complete your studies, to become a Fisheries Officer.

Only in todays Mandurah Coastal Times is a story about a local Mandurahh Fisheries Officer John Breeden, who charged a recreational guy from Perth with pulling pro crab pots in the Estuary and taking the crabs.

So - there are some guys out there, and they are good guys!

They need more, and if this govt won't supply more- then likely the next one will when they realise it's an issue people feel strongly about i.e. a vote winner!

There are always things that occurr that lead to recruitment of Fisheries Officers - sometimes even the Federal Fisheries Dept's take on staff (Like when they just set up their new Darwin Office to tackle the Indonesian Fishing problem) so eventually you'll get a job and when you do - you'll make a difference!

I remember working with this John Breeden's dad from Busselton Rob Breeden, may years ago, who used to run Wildlife Walkabout Safari's down that way - back when we were making a TV show with Harry Butler OBE!

You see - the passion to make a difference runs deep in that family and thru more than one generation!

Never give up the dream or the passion and you will get there one way or another!

Cheers!

[bigfella]

Hi Guys,
I agree completely with what you are saynig and i agree that violence is not the answer, even though i do love to work with my hands
Why dont we as a group, when passing these individuals, take a few happy snaps, and the more the merrier. If we include their faces, cars and the fish too, it will be very hard for fisheries not to follow up. At the end of the day they need evidence to work with and nothing says more than a few photos. This would also make it very hard for the repeat offenders to get out of it.
We all know that they are unable to follow it up if we call them and they are across town etc. If the basic details were sent to them with all of the senders details so that they could follow it up then they probably would.
And if they dont then the next time there is a fish kill on and the papers are telling everyone how concerned all the M.P's are, maybe we could send them a few pictures of the illegal goings on that are happening and tell them what this so called concerned govt. is doing to rectify the problem.
As i said a picture tells a thousand words and it is very hard for someone to deny they have done any wrong when there is photographic evidence. Just think of those bloody multa novas that they have on the side of the road.

Any way just my 2 cents

Cheers
Chris

[DAGGA]

Bigfella,
Simple but a very good idea, it would be hard to get there car in the photograph and the thing is how would you know its theres BUT the beauty of it is, you can take a few snaps from the comfort of your boat providing your in a boat and there isnt nearby rocks to be hurled and they cant do anything about it. Then simply say this is going to the fisheries office and ether make a real call or pretend etc and it would probebly deter them right there on the spot and they might even consider packing up and moving on or releasing they captures before fisheries show up.

Make sure the flash is on so they know its happening and make the phone call obvious and performance like. Then at the very least you can hand over the picture to fisheries and say just keep an eye out of these people in the future. Might even save atleast one bream or so in the time they pack up to move on, you just never know.......Very good idea Bigfella!

P.S: Thanks for starting the thread and thanks for your email, ill get back to you once i have had a bit more sleep and not mumbling and twitching like i am at the minute

The Fisheries People need you to give them the evidence, without putting yourself in harms way - observe record and report!

They need a sworn statement of evidence from you as a witness and preffferably they need two or more corroborating witnesses!

So.

If you had the Fisheries Email address pre programmed into your mobile phone (as I do for them andpolice etc) you can take the happy snap with the phone and email it direct!

BUt - without all the details - what use it it, to the Fisheries people unless a cuplrit can be identified in some way!

A boat registration is sometimes enough to go on, and a car rego is also sometimes enough, but iit's much better if you can get name, address, date of birth, date, time, vehicle rego, boat rego, fish length (against a ruler) number of undersized fish (layed out so the can be counted in a photo.

These are the pics the Fisheries need to take the case to court on what is called "circumstantial evidence"! (Your says so and that of a corroborating witness).

Circumstantial cases do not always win - they do need 'prima face' evideence (the seized undersized fish) and a statement from the arresting officer who holds the warrant of arrest powers for that Fisheries act!

Now - for exmple, you techno kiddies with your mobile phones could possibly upload a blank witness statement form tonto your moble phone that you fill out and embed the photo's into and email direct to fisheries - it already has all your details name address phone number etc on it - and you just key in the details and attach the pics and hit send - then you have a witness statement.

Before the case you will have to make a sworn evidentiary statement in front of a commissioner of declarations.

You also have to be prepred to go to court to make the statement from the witness stand under oath!

When you think that - it's a court of petty sessions where they will only get a fine and a small one at that - re you prepared to give up your days wages at work to attend the court for 5 mins testimoney?

Thats largely the problem - unless the F8sheries dudes catch them doing the deed themselves getting a conviction on circumstantial evidence is very tough. Most times the public prosecutir wont run with the case without prima face evidence! (The fish).

Non of us have the right to seize thse fish - only a fisheries officer does!

In fact if you tried to seize the rfish as evidence you could be guilty of trying to impersonatre a fisheries officer which is a more serious offence than the guy with the 3 excess or undersized fish!

Tis a legal minefield trying to get a conviction of someone for a fishing offense - all you can do is gather evidence and pass it along!

Sad but true!

Cheers!

[Yardi]

Well said Trouty, it is extremely hard for an Officer to get a conviction unless the offender is caught red handed.
The body of evidence must be strong and like any law enforcement office, the arrest must be by the book or it wont stand up in court. Photo's are only really good for id purposes and could not be used in court. Fisheries Officers carry cameras and if used the protocol for pictures to be presented as evidence is stringent.
One of the major problems Fisheries Officers confront is that when prosecuting some Foriegn members of the public, they claim they do not understand and generally walk away with slap on the wrist. The Department is working hard to overcome this "Me dont understand" mentality and pretty soon this wont be much of a defense.
Again its all about education, if they continue to rort the system then throw the book at them.
You are right about the public prosecution process Trouty, an officer MUST have a water tight case before it will go to court, remembering that the prosecution has to prove 99% and the defense 1% beyond reasonable doubt . Thate why Officers have to ensure when prosecuting that they have crossed every T and Dotted every I.
I know first hand how frustrating it can be for Fisheries Officers, to really do their job's, as there is alot of red tape and hurdles to get through to gain a sucsessful prosecution.
IMO Fisheries Officers are doing a great job, we just need a whole lot more of them and thats totally up to the Government to supply correct funding and put in place long term stratergies, to ensure there are plenty of Officers out there.
WA is a massive state and a huge area to Police, if you count the amount of Officers and divide it by the areas needed to patrol, it does not compute.
Trouty I know John Breedon, he is a fantastic bloke as are most in the department, we just need a whole lot more.
Yardi

Learned the hard way Yardi!

I once brought a case against a prominent citizen, back in my days with CALM as a wildlife officer! I had prima face evidence, (the trees he stole) I had photographic evidence, (Where he'd dragged em outta the forest and into his farm with a 4wd tractor) as well as witness statements from his neighbors saying they had seen him felling, cutting up and dragtging the logs onto his farm .I had evidence of where he was splitting them into fenceposts for his farm.

Now each of these prime Jarrah trees woulda made $20 grands worth of fine furniture - but instead they were being used to replace a $3 steel star picket in a fence!

The guy had a relative in Perth was a Queens Council.

He got free legal advice not to make a confession. (His Miranda right to remain silent).

We put the case up and the Public prosecutor "did a deal" with the Queens Council.

I don't know what that deal was - but likely it went something like:-

I will get my Murder client to cop to manslaughter with diminished responsibility, and a reduced sentence - if you drop the Forestry Charges against my brother!

So, the case never saw the light of day and the bad guy wins!

Even when Fisheries officers have ALL the evidence, wrapped up tight- it doesn't mean the bad guys lose!

There are all sorts of expedient deals done all the way up the tree, and even the politicians aren't beyond pulling a few strings to help a mate out of a jam (for a sizeable election campaign donation!).

Our justice system isn't perfect, people!

Only a fortnight ago, I busted 2 guys for a B & E (Break end enter, felony charge = prison time).

Gave a written statement to the police of the vehicle make model year color and rego number + description of the two offenders (who fled)!

Police just said "sorry - this car doesn't exist, end of case!".

The fact it was a late model beamer, and was probably the local judges car with his delinquent kid inside it mightta had something to do with the outcome!

There are people, within our society to whom the laws just do not apply. They are the "untouchables".. Teflon people - to who mud just doesn't stick!

Can anyone say K!z on?

Face it people - the Fisheries guys have the odds stacked heavily against them.

Not all LEO's (Law Enforcement Officers) are straight up guys to be trusted - there ARE a few bad apples in the barell.

It is unrealistic today to expect that as soon as you see 3 undersized bream in a buckey under a bridge somewhere that some Fisheries Officer is going to drop what he's doing and come running!

The truth of the matter is - that Fisheries officer is probably working with a Federal Policeman and Customs guy to track a Indo boat trading drugs & arms and stealing fish across our unprotected northern borders!

Likely he has bigger fish to fry frankly.

He is NOT going to drop something serious like that to come bust some recent arrival for a few small bream.

Are Bream a threatened species?

Are Bream a high value commercial species?

The answers are no and in all thruth - you'd probably be doing the poor Fisheries guy a favor if you just took the details passed them along and forgot about it!

Wheres the mileage in prosecuting the case?

The press will label him racist, and the civil rights activists start picketting his office, the press hounding his family, his kids get beaten up at school by some recent arrivals gang of youths with knives etc etc

Lets get real about it - while you guys are passionate about your bream, your a minority group and bream don't rate in the bigger scheme of things!

Theres not a lot of point getting hyped up about a few small ones ending up in a bucket!

Don't you think, if it seriously mattered, that the Fisheries people would arrest Alan Carpenter or whoever the Fisheries Minister is these days (Hon J Ford?) for every bream Fish Kill in the swan River???????????????????

I think sometimes our passion for a single species of fish clouds our vision about the seriousness of a few undersized being taken for a feed by new arrivals who don't speak the lingo and might have a cultural predisposition towards the smaller sweeter fish for the table with 15 hungry kids mouths sitting around it!

Thats my take on it anyway! (Born of experience).

Cheers!

[bigfella]

Ah so many optomists,
I am sure that we all have a story to tell about how we had someone arrested and that they got off. Hell i probably have more than most of you put together. Not really the point though.
So long as the evidence can be given to fisheries and, if they choose not to do anything with it due to lack of evidence then so be it. It may be that they feel that there is not enough evidence to prosecute this time but if they have all of this and they finally do catch up with said person they can basically throw the book at them.
There can be no claim from there lawyer saying "oh poor old Joe Blow didnt know because he doesnt speak the language and it is his first offence". If that is the case then why are there so many photos of him doing the wrong thing.
I had a guy arrested the other night at work and he tried to play the no english card to the coppers when they caught up with him, quite funny really. The coppers pulled them over on the side of the road(pedestrians) and had a chat with them and out it came. They held firm theat he did not speak english until the coppers got to questioning his girlfriend(last of the group) and when they put the heat on her he miraculously started to speak and understand english. As a result of what me and my work partner saw he was arrested and questioned further at the cop shop, but still denied the incident. When it came time to go to court he pleaded guilty and was given a massive fine and now has a criminal record.
Not really worth it for a broken window hey!!!!!!!!!
I guess the point is not to give up hope and they can do something one way or another. If they have the evidence when they eventually are caught it is much harder for them to get off.

Cheers
Chris