Is Comp Fishing Sustainable?

[powderfish]

Fishing competitions are not something i know much about and honestly have little interest in participating in as I treat lure fishing as a relaxing and enjoyable hobby. I do fish very regularly throughout Vic and often in the same locations as bream comps and have come across numerous people with very strong opinions on the damage that comp fishing does to a fishery.

I have no opinion as yet due to my lack of knowledge on the subject, but I have heard some very good arguments to suggest that comp fishing is doing more harm than good to both fisheries and local communities. Catch and release is a great thing, don't get me wrong, but are the fish released in the same area that they were caught? If not, does that affect their survival rate?

To what extent are comps designed around the fish? That is, do the comps occur in the most sustainable times of the year? How about running competitions in impoundments instead where natural stocks are not affected? I have already noticed that within 12 months I can no longer fish a certain lure in my favourite fishing location. It was supposedly used almost exclusively by anglers in two comps earlier this year and it appears the fish have wised-up to that type of lure. I fear that long-term this could impact on our natural fisheries and see our favourite fishing towns suffer.

I am just looking for opinions and feedback so I can better understand the impact of comp fishing on these beautiful natural fisheries that we all care about.

Cheers.

[Squidgee_Man]

Personally i don't think releasing a Bream in a different part of a River where it was caught affects it at all. But I'm no expert either. Here in Perth the Swan river is pretty much the same right through. The only thing that would affect the fish dying was if it was injured or if the live well on the boat was inadequate, but these are checked before the start anyway. As long as the fish are treated with care until after weighing and release i don't see any future problems for the fish or competitions.

Fish not taking a particular lure and or lures at your spots may just be due to weather conditions. Tides, Temp, moon phase etc. In may not have anything to do with the people fishing in comps. Maybe the fish have moved or just not interested on the day your fishing. I doubt it has anything to do with the comps. Don't forget fishing's a funny game! JMO

[brad mcdonald]

i'll answer your question with another one.

is there a more sustainable fishing method or mechanism for increasing the publics awareness of catch and release fishing practices?

yep fish become lure shy - leader shy - line shy but it all goes in circles. they still eat prawns after all.

[Squidgee_Man]

Nice longnose in ya Avatar Brad, i bet that was caught in the lagoon up North? going by the light colours. Mine was caught in 50mt:) Yours looks bigger but:(

[Emo]

i dont think it does any harm. Certainly much less harm than comercial fishing, old school kill comps, polution, algal blooms and other man made environmental damage.

[n-fish]

I think that fishing a comp over 1-2 days in a system can not do as much harm as say a normal weeks worh of people taking undersize fish or 1 person doing the wrong thing and throwing in a net or the amount of people who take home a legal fish and then throw it in the bin after it sitting in the fridge / freezer for too long

I think with the amount of people who fish for sport insted of a feed can only be a good thing

[Stealth]

Agree with EMO, comp fishing is definatly not the worst thing happening to our waterways

[walloper]

iv'e gone to a few of the killing weigh ins in my area, as a spy,fly on the wall type of thing, and it's heart breaking. kilo plus bream cleaned 3 and 4kg flathead dead. they'll even kill and weigh wrasse for points only to take these reef dwellers down the boat ramp and throw them to the pellicans, " cause they're crap eating."
there is no future in these type of fishing comps.
catch and release is the way to go.
you can take this arguement all the way to BAN FISHING all together,
which is rediculous.
atleast when released there is a chance of survival.

[Shane]

This would be a question for Murdoch and their research into the Blackwood.

At one point they were tagging our fish caught weren't they?

I think if the system was a very remote one and then 50 boats rocked around for a couple of days throwing pointy things, this could have an impact. How long I wouldn't know. An example is in the comps where prefish Fridays can send the fish down.

Fish in the Swan, for example, are used to the boat traffic and such. They are more at risk to the fertilizer run off from the race course and such.

It would be an interesting study, but one that would have to be performed over many years for a feasible study. Would be a good PHD for someone, "yeah I need to get the latest stat samples for my research, pass my rod over" :D

[phil jagger]

I don't know if you can blame competitions themselves, the popularisation of the sport by other parties (the media for one) would play a major role also.

Phil

[Ballnuts]

I have had to take a few deep breaths before replying to this as most people that make bold statements about catch and release comps have no bloody idea what they are talking about.

Firstly tournament fishing has done more to educate people about sustainable fishing practices and the benefits of catch and release fishing than any other group. Tagging that has been done at the Vic Bream Comps have had fish that were tagged re caught with in 4 weeks of being tagged showing the fish are released in good health.

Catching fish and releasing them back into the waterway in a different location may not be a perfect scenario but at least they go back alive. Mallacoota was a perfect case in point. Some local loons were complaining about the damage releasing fish in a different location would have on the spawning run and to show how smart these people are I posed to them that more damage would be done over the 2 weeks over Xmas to the bream spawning than at the comp. Their intelligent response was yeah but thats not in spawning season? True but those fish caught over xmas will struggle to spawn next year when they are all DohDohDohDohing dead. Certain people don't give a DohDohDohDoh about the health of the bream in general they just want to preserve their own money making exploitation of the fishery.
After certain people said to me that its bad running comps in spawning times I said thats a fair point and if we really want to protect bream lets get serious and get together and get fisheries to put in place a closed season on bream in Victoria while they spawn, to which they replied you can't do that it would kill the town. BullDohDohDohDoh I said it would kill certain persons businesses BLOODY HIPOCRIT! Happy to talk about protecting the bream if it suits them. So are they interested in protecting the species or a cash cow?

Second comment, comps have a negative impact on communities.... Are you for DohDohDohDohing real.
Studies have shown that each Vic Bream Comp will bring between 50 to 100 thousand dollars into the local communites they are held in through pre-fish visits, comp weekend food, accomo, fuel, tackle. Also many people that firstly visit a place through entering a comp will come back with families for holidays. Don't know who you are talking to but they are ill informed. Speak with business owners in the towns where Vic Bream Comps are held and I'm sure you will get a different story. I purposely plan all my comps out of school holidays or long weekends to give towns another weekend of revenue. I work my arse off to ensure my comps benefit towns. The people telling you this would be people who either want to keep their sleepy little town to themselves or business owners that have missed the opportunities the comps have offered them through their own silly greed and or laziness.

Lastly you mentioned mate some of your faviourite lures are not working anymore. I can't comment as to the truth behind bream getting smarter but guess all I can say is that lure fishing is a challenge, embrace the challenge and try some of the new products on the market and I'm sure you will have success.

Sorry to get heated guys, but I get sick and tired of hearing this DohDohDohDoh about comps that are one weekend a year when over school holidays in all these towns bream are slaughtered by the ton. If our comps can educate more people about the benefits of catch and release fishing them maybe more kids may say to Mum or Dad over the school holidays when they catch a huge bream " Dad on Vic Bream TV they were saying how slow bream grow and it could be really old so can we let it go I don't want to kill it" then we have done our job and how anyone can say that that message has negative impacts on fishing or towns then I would love to hear how.

[Pete D]

I personally think if anything it is a good thing, fish get caught /released and then wisen up or become more careful when feeding which in turn these fish grow to be bigger bream which creates better breeding.When you find the fishing isnt as good its probably not because the bream arent there coz i think u will find they are,just they are smarter we just have to become smarter ourselves to catch em:p and besides the amount of bream caught in c&r tournaments isnt even on the same scale as the amount that die from netters and algal blooms etc.;)

[IceManDude]

Well said Bill, i've nothing more to add really...... scary isn't it?:D

[Bear]

Personally, as someone who had been a the front of the tournaments, the biggest issue that organisers will face is keeping interest and growing the comps across ALL (not just Eastern) states. Keeping the status quo isn't going to further the sport. Anglers in each state need something more than just a National GF, JMO. Giving the juniors something to aim for is also important if teh sport is to grow.

Again, JMO.

[forsterfisho]

Good evening powderfish,

The fisheries manager's have designed a system where the organisers of a comp can run a check on their individual event and see if it is environmently sound.
You question about catch and release at different points in a system. With bream this should not pose much of a problem, as bream roam an entire system, from the brackish regions right down to the mouth of a system and out to sea to spawn.
Bass comps, i have no knowledge about, but by the looks of things, they are held on dams more so than rivers? As long as the bass are returned back to the water, ie in the dam not below the weir or somewhere else. That too i can not see a problem with.
Barra comps, ditto.
A flathead comp i have fished, did raise a few concerns on fish handling and C and R ethics. Many of the fish "released" died within 2-5m of being released. A few boats had plastic tubs, with no insulation, no plumbing and yet the organisers said this is ok, as long as you changed the water. Obviously this wasnt being done.
I guess with ABT comps, there would be closer scrutiny of the requirements for live wells.
I also noticed at this flathead comp, competitors werent very sure on how to handle fish, with fish being left on warm tinny thwarts as hooks were being removed and not being handled with wet hands. Maybe when you sign on for a comp, each person should recieve a booklet written by fisheries dept about fish handling and the requirements to keep them heatlthy.

Also mentioned in your post, was about running comps with stocked species. Bass and barra are run on stocked systems as far as i know. Bream would be different as they mainly live in an open system, so how would one know what is a farmed specimen and what is not?

To a point i agree that comps can make fishing a system harder after an event, but there doesnt seem to be a long term effect (although the comps have not been run long enough to have a study of "long term" effects undertaken. This is something I am aiming toward achieving proffesionaly). Perhaps the reason the fishing has been shut down is due to other environmental factors?

I think that the amount of comps in a system needs to be closely monitored, as Forster is apparently set to hold 3 bream comps next year and 2 flathead comps. It is not a "large" system, plus factor in the amount of tourists the area recieves outside of comp time, plus the problems of pro fishing. Then this could pose some problems on the biomass of bream (and bi catch, eg flathead) in the system?

As others have mentioned comp fishing needs to have other factors taken into consideration, ie $$$ value to the economy, product knowledge and R and D. I think comp fishing needs to be closely managed by fisheries officals, so as not to "create a monster"

Perhaps the people that profit from fishing, ie tackle companies should start investing heavily into fisheries management, so that they secure there future? Does the ABT put a percentage of money taken, into Environmental R and d?

So in conclusion, Fishing comps do have take a toll on the environment around them, but what is the price of this toll? Does the negative impacts on the environment outweigh the monetary reward for all the people involved in running the comps, from the ABT, tackle companies through to local communities?

Sorry for the rant, but is something that i intend to conduct futher study into.

Regards,
ff

[forsterfisho]

Hi Ballnuts.
Very good points you have raised there.
"Tagging that has been done at the Vic Bream Comps have had fish that were tagged re caught with in 4 weeks of being tagged showing the fish are released in good health."
Just a quick question, is there any data available as how the fish were re-caught? Ie via netting (scientifically) or line method? You appear to have knowledgeable information on the Tagging and recapture, any links to the data?

Your second point about fishing within a breeding season for bream, I agree to this point, why are comps being run in breeding seasons? I think the comp organisers need to re-think this idea.
I believe that in the near future, fisheries will impose closed seasons on most fish (only oppinion, no data). The main problem faced with having closed seasons is enforcing the closures. fisheries require more $$$, perhaps the people involved with the fishing industry can help support the resource needs of fisheries, if they dont already?
Fishing comps have an impact on townships. I dont think it can be said once and for all wheather they are negative or positive impacts. Financially, yes it would be a positive impact. Environmentally, it may be a negative impact. I believe trying to find a balance is critical into management of comps.

Dont misunderstand what i am trying to put across here. Bream comps do have a positive impact on C and R, but as my previous post stated, i think it still has some work to do, and as all things in life, they need constant monitoring, and if, required implementing changes. Comps have certanly changed the perception of fishers, from beer swilling slobs, through to proffesional, educated sportsmen. This can be only regarded as a positive.
but in 10-15-20 years time, what will the sport evolve into? how will proposed management changes affect our sport? Unfortuantly I dont own a crystal ball, but with some savvy management and implementation of smart environmental management stratagies, i can see our sport becoming more environmentaly friendly and becoming something similar to the BASS comps in the united states.
Regards,
FF:cool:

[Alex]

+1 to what Bill just said.

I'll give you one example of what these comps taught me and Paul: to care for a fish.
We fished Vicbream Coota event last year and had 5 fish on board by 11:30. The biggest fish in the well became a little sick and we asked Bill if it was ok to stop fishing and do a weigh in before the official weigh in time to save this fish.
So we stopped fishing and headed to the weigh in area just to save one fish!
It might have cost us a better place in the comp as we could not continue and lost our chances of upgrading but we felt great that the fish was released in the water unharmed and in good shape.

Talking about sustainability, I hate to see all the undersized bream they sell on the markets and shops under different and often confusing names (silver bream, ocean bream etc.).
Do they stop harvesting them during breeding season? I doubt it.
Do the netters release all undersized fish back unharmed? Not physically possible!

Not to mention some people going home with buckets full of undersized fish from Wormies, Yarra and the Nong.

Catch and Release gets promoted and endorsed through various forms of media including Vicbream Classic comps and ABT events, TV programs and the websites just like BM. Can't see any problems here.

Cheers,
Alex

[phil jagger]

While tournaments do, do a good job of promoting catch and release fishing, there is now doubt that the popularity spike of chasing bream on lures has put more pressure on Australia's river and estuary systems.

Fishing for bream has boomed in the last five or so years and with this boom comes pros and cons. Sure catch and release fishing is being massively promoted but we also have to look at the impact thousands of more anglers fishing for bream has on our systems as-well.

Please don't take these comments as negative but more open minded. ABT , the classic guys and others running and fishing catch and release tournaments are doing all they can to make sure the fish are released in good condition and to promote the cause of sustainability. But, as said before, a spike in the amount of anglers fishing for one specific species has to have some kind of negative affects as well.


Phil

[ruski]

Agreed Phil.

But at the same time, I think we've just gotten used to seeing 1 or 2 boats out on the water in previous years and expected it to stay that way. The more the sport grows, the more people we will see out on the water. With the added pressure on the systems, we'll adapt and still be able to catch bream. Perhaps not in the same numbers as in the past, but you'll still get those 30-50 fish a day sessions on occasions.

I still think our systems receive 1/50th of pressure that lakes in the US get, where there are tournaments happening almost every day on a certain lake/body of water.

By watching some of their videos, I still think that bream are a lot spookier and can get lure shy, but if bass guys can still catch them with 100's of boats around, then I'm sure we can find a way too...

[MinnowMan]

You could make this thread into a book.

[powderfish]

To a point i agree that comps can make fishing a system harder after an event, but there doesnt seem to be a long term effect (although the comps have not been run long enough to have a study of "long term" effects undertaken. This is something I am aiming toward achieving proffesionaly).

I think that the amount of comps in a system needs to be closely monitored....

As others have mentioned comp fishing needs to have other factors taken into consideration, ie $$$ value to the economy, product knowledge and R and D. I think comp fishing needs to be closely managed by fisheries officals, so as not to "create a monster"

...Does the ABT put a percentage of money taken, into Environmental R and d?

So in conclusion, Fishing comps do have take a toll on the environment around them, but what is the price of this toll? Does the negative impacts on the environment outweigh the monetary reward for all the people involved in running the comps, from the ABT, tackle companies through to local communities?

Sorry for the rant, but is something that i intend to conduct further study into.

Regards,
ff

Thanks for all the great replies! Very interesting to hear different viewpoints and I think this thread has highlighted one thing. The lack of conclusive information.

ForsterFisho understands that it's all good and well to make broad statements about 1 week of such and such fishing doing more damage, but this is just speculation. You can't just compare average recreational fishos to a weekend of 200 pro fishos that have a world of knowledge about the species. So many factors need to be taken into account that only time and research will tell what the impact of comp fishing is on our fisheries.

No doubt there are a lot of positives that have come from bream tournaments relating to C&R and fishing sustainably, but it's not good enough just to stop there, efforts can continue to ensure that these comps are setting a good example. I think everyone in this thread agrees that bream should not be targeted during spawning, and that releasing fish into different parts of the rivers is not ideal. Can the comps judge on the length of the fish and use photo evidence with customised rulers to judge? I don't claim to know the answers, I just have a gut feeling that long-term we might run into problems. Which is why more research and conclusive evidence is needed.

Lastly my question regarding the health of communities is more a question of long-term effects. If the fishing becomes so difficult due to the pressure of activities such as comps, then these towns may see a decrease in patronage over the long-term. Sure, one weekend they net 50-100 grand, but this is only short term and possibly not in their best interests in the long run.

I am learning a lot through this thread, so I urge people to keep it going with their opinions and thoughts on where comp fishing can head in the future to ensure that we can continue to enjoy our sport.

Cheers,

Powderfish

[Alex]

You can't just compare average recreational fishos to a weekend of 200 pro fishos that have a world of knowledge about the species.

Yes you can. Your average recreational fisho can kill 20 bream for weekend not to mention all flathead, salmon, travelly and luderick they can keep. And if fishing with their family-a lot more.
On the other hand, 200 pro fishos (man, I am a pro now!:rolleyes:) catch 10 fish per boat for 2 people for a weekend of which all bream (and flathead, travelly, luderick and salmon) go back to the water unharmed. And by the way some "pros" go home with doughnuts.

I think everyone in this thread agrees that bream should not be targeted during spawning, - Yes, a very good point, but needs to be investigated further. If it should not be targeted by people fishing comps, then the closed season should be introduced for all, not the selected few.

and that releasing fish into different parts of the rivers is not ideal. - Why not? Bream get upset or they might die if not released in the same spot? Is there any scientific data to support this claim?



Can the comps judge on the length of the fish and use photo evidence with customised rulers to judge? - Open for abuse and also, how would you judge if half of the field catch the same size fish? etc. etc.


Lastly my question regarding the health of communities is more a question of long-term effects. If the fishing becomes so difficult due to the pressure of activities such as comps, - there are only 2 bream comps in Victoria in any given location a year, Vicbream Classic and ABT: I wouldn't call it the pressure of activities...
I cannot comment on the amount of other comps in Vic. (clubs, etc.) happening throughout a year, but in this discussion we are limiting ourselves to only those two.

I am learning a lot through this thread, so I urge people to keep it going with their opinions and thoughts on where comp fishing can head in the future to ensure that we can continue to enjoy our sport. - Well said and I wholeheartedly agree with you on that.

Cheers,

Powderfish

Cheers,
Alex

[brad mcdonald]

what does sustainability mean in this context?

sustainability of the target species?

financial sustainability?

enviromentaly sustainable?

a c&r comp will kill a very low number of fish regardless of the target species. there is some tagging evidence to susgest that bream in particular go about there busieness with little or no adverse impact after release. so i assume that the sustainability of the species would not be challanged.

finacially? well thats a a questions for others. i know the WABT serries in WA was not sustainable.

enviro? most of the "comp boats" are running low e motors so i cant see polution being an issue.....

i'm interested to know what others believe "sustainable" means in this context....

[Zenburger]

The only thing I can see as a bit of a problem is the use of Lead Jig Heads very bad for the enviroment,:eek:

No problem for the Bream I believe survival rate is high and they make their way back to the areas from where they were caught I've heard.

Zen

[projoe]

Zen, you state lead jigheads bad for the enviroment, well i have on very low tides in the port river here in sa at birkenhead (a rocky snaggy beach) found up to 5 kilo of lead sinkers, so i think the few jig heads that would be lost in circumstances such as this would be insignificant, however yes lead should be replaced & TT's were or maybe still are putting out a lead alternative, yes maybe this sort of thing should be promoted more. there are also enviromentally friendly sinkers now available & in some countries these are all you can use i suppose we will eventually catch up with these ideas but it is legislation passed into law that makes the biggest impact. unfortunately.

[Zenburger]

Lead in general wether it be baitos or Jig head users it all adds up as you know and I'm in total agreement that makers need to look at alternatives which are available:)

Just something to ponder how many Lead Jig heads you lose in an average session? how many times a year you go fishing? adds up to a bit of lead going into the water, or how many lead jigs do you lose during a comp? and how many anglers in that comp losing the same amount as you?

Zen

[stompy]

Powder,

I have fished in a number of ABT & associated comps where fish care is of Primary importance.

Fishing clubs held Kill & Grill comps long before c&R release comps, Evans Head has one every year that runs for a week and tons of fish are caught and killed. Numerous other towns runs comps like these and have done for years and they are widely embraced by the community. Yet you state that you have heard some very good arguments against C&R comps. If you have then post one!

C&R release comps would be held on most reputable rivers no more than a couple of time of year. I regulary fish 2 such rivers being the Clarence and Richmond, comps have NO effect on catch rates after comps. The fishing is generally more difficult during comps due to the number of boats and improves straight after. Every waterway that has a fishing club has at least one kill and grill comp a year with every fish counting for points and some of the things that are weighed in are tragic.

Floods and acid sulphate run off and Commercial netting of spawn run fish do have a impact. If you think one or two comps a year signicantly impacts other anglers from catching fish this then this is WRONG!

The benifit however, the profile of the river as a fishing destination attracts tourism $$ when familys return tell friends ect. A lot of costal towns rely on tourist $$ and the comps are a positive for all towns. Some individuals might not agree, but the community will always prosper due to the influx of $$

There are plenty of weekend fisho's armed with bait that can catch plenty of fish. Take blackfishermen as one example, can be shoulder to shoulder bagging out days on end. Good Bream & flathead fishermen using bait can fill a bag without to much drama as well.

You have had a dig at people about generalised comments, that's all you have made so far.

My advice is to try a comp, if you like them then fish in them. If you don't then give them a miss.

If you are serious about impact on fishing enviroments, then look at commercial fisheries in estuaries, the practices of kill fishing comps based on points, the poor management of agricultural run off around river communities.

Regards,

[Ballnuts]

When you say if we don't continue to improve our practises we may run into trouble. Personally I'm not a scientist but I really doubt that. I don't think people really truely understand the positive impact of fishing practises these days when compared to 20 years ago. I think C & R fishing tournaments have nothing to answer to as not only do we operate over and above the current laws but we have the protection of the species in our mind.

As for fishing tournaments in spawning time that in itself is very hard to gauge from year to year. To do it properly we may need to close bream fishing from April to the end of September as fish have been caught all through those months in a schooled up state potentially ready to spawn????

Lets put it into perspective for one minute. The Vic Bream Mallacoota round in June had 65 teams catch and release 552 bream over 2 days. Now we would have been well with in our rights to kill every one of those fish and in fact over the 2 days we could have weighed in 2600 dead bream and we would have been within the laws set down by fisheries so I can tell you now that fisheries love the message we preach to people everywhere not just about C & R but about keeping water ways clean and looking after the environment.

There is a lot bigger fish to fry in relation to fishing sustainability issues than fishing tournaments.

Finally don't be so niave to the fact that just because people don't fish tournaments and that they use bait that they are not good fisherman. Some of the best and most experienced bait anglers going around love a good slaughter. In estuary systems all over Australia the xmas holidays is the slaughter fest to end all slaughter fests. I wouldn't be surprised if a place like Mallacoota that swells to thousands of people over xmas would have more than 20,000 bream slaughtered, more flathead and god knows how many other species.

I think the tournament practises we use today will be still be beneficial in decades to come.

[brad mcdonald]

well said bill.

thats was kind of my point. form a "sustainability" point of view a can think of a more "sustainable" fishing pratice.

[IceManDude]

yes Bill, well said mate

[Zenburger]

Still on the subject on keeping our waterways clean and not polluting them with LEAD does anyone know if Enviro Jigs are still available????

Zen

[Alex]

I think C & R fishing tournaments have nothing to answer to as not only do we operate over and above the current laws but we have the protection of the species in our mind.



Just to add to what Bill said, the fish at tournaments is measured to the fork, not to the tip.
So 28 cm to the fork in the comps is your legal 30-31 cm bream to the tip.

All fish under 28 cm to the fork during the comp is released immediately meaning that more fish are returned to the water.

Cheers,
Alex

[forsterfisho]

Hi guys,

just my rebuttal on some posts that I have read today – makes a change from having my head in a book.

“Yes you can. Your average recreational fisho can kill 20 bream for weekend not to mention all flathead, salmon, travelly and luderick they can keep. And if fishing with their family-a lot more.”
“On the other hand, 200 pro fishos (man, I am a pro now! ) catch 10 fish per boat for 2 people for a weekend of which all bream (and flathead, travelly, luderick and salmon) go back to the water unharmed. And by the way some "pros" go home with doughnuts”.

Obviously, not every “average recreational fisho” WILL kill 20 bream a weekend. I am an average fisho (very average) and I would struggle to catch 20 bream a weekend normally. The amount of the fisho’s that are seen at my local boat ramp, stating they didn’t catch very much at all, normally outweighs the amount of fishermen that catch bag limits regularly. Not sure what you mean by “flathead salmon trevally and luderick they can keep”. Bag limits apply to those species as well.
You also mention that pro’s catch of 10 fish per boat for a weekend. My maths is that it is 20 fish per boat per weekend, if both anglers catch a full bag. Your figure is right for 1 day of comp fishing, not a weekend.
You also state that these bream and other associated bi-catch go back unharmed. I have firsthand knowledge that this fish do not go back unharmed and a percentage suffer some sort of harm as a result of being caught.
A bream comp proposed to be held up here (cancelled mind you) had all competitors driving back from the boat ramp, along a bumpy road at highways speed to a weigh in about 20km’s down the coast. It would have been interesting to see how many bream were injured in that trip.
“Bream get upset or they might die if not released in the same spot? Is there any scientific data to support this claim?”

Your reply seems to be mocking the concerns raised. If bream were in a certain part of the system, due to the fact that the environmental requirements, reached their needs (For example, Food sources, what quality, oxygen rate, salinity rate – a whole number of environmental factors) and if they were removed from this microclimate (This is scientific fact, check out “Elements of ecology, 7th edition, T. Smith & R. Smith 2009”).
This could quite possibly have a negative impact on the bream and their chances at survival and spawning ability.
AsIi said before, there isn’t much data available on western Yellowfin bream that I have come across. I am not sure about the southern black bream – perhaps you know of somewhere that we can gather data from? It was mentioned before that tagging programs have been undertaken in vic. Who by and where’s the data?

“I cannot comment on the amount of other comps in Vic. (clubs, etc.) happening throughout a year, but in this discussion we are limiting ourselves to only those two”.

It seems surprising that a thread titled “Is comp fishing sustainable” is only being limited to 1 state in Australia, where there is only 2 known comps, for the entire year throughout the state.
For a more meaningful discussion and one that has some basis for further study, perhaps we discuss the thread title “Is comp fishing sustainable” not “Is comp fishing sustainable for 2 comps in one state per year”
Sustainability is something that is hard to define in this context. There is a definite definition for the environment; there is a definition for financial sustainability and individual sustainability of a species.
But I think in this discussion, all 3 factors are being discussed

”a c&r comp will kill a very low number of fish regardless of the target species. There is some tagging evidence to suggest that bream in particular go about their business with little or no adverse impact after release. So I assume that the sustainability of the species would not be challenged”
Once again, who has carried out this tagging and what data has resulted from it?

It is also mentioned that most “comp” boats are running low emission outboards. I’d agree with this, but what about the effects of wash from these boats having on erosion on riverside banks? What about the effect of fisho’s using electric over weed beds, effectively being used as “lawn mowers”.

I am trying to put across the argument that Comp fishing is not the ONLY problem affecting estuaries, but combined with over fishing recreationally, over fishing by professionals and the affect of other environmental factors. Combined, these “drains” on the environment will one day have a large effect to play on the estuarine environment.
I am not for the total cessation of comp fishing. But if rec fishing can help control one small part of the problem, by putting in place controls and regulations to protect our sport and our environment, than that has to be a good thing doesn’t it?
There are a lot of people out there that are arguing for the complete end to fishing. If we are seen to be making some sort of positive impact on the environment, then this can only work in our favour.
It was mentioned that fishing practises have improved over the last 20 years. Yes they have, but I believe they can improve. Obviously computer technology has improved over the last 20 years, but the pc industry just doesn’t stand still today and say “oh well, we’ve come far enough. Let’s stop now” So why should the rec fishing industry.
I’m not saying that what we are doing is wrong as rec fisher’s but I believe we can improve our ways of fishing and reduce the impact on the environment.

Once again, sorry about the rant, but I do feel strongly about this.
Regards,
ff

[snag]

The only thing I can see as a bit of a problem is the use of Lead Jig Heads very bad for the enviroment,:eek:

No problem for the Bream I believe survival rate is high and they make their way back to the areas from where they were caught I've heard.

Zen

Some contries have now banned lead jigheads altogether from any comp fishing.
Very good point by the way.

[Alex]

Hi ff,
I just wanted to clarify a few things that I possibly didn't make absolutely clear in my previous post:

Hi guys,

just my rebuttal on some posts that I have read today – makes a change from having my head in a book.

“Yes you can. Your average recreational fisho can kill 20 bream for weekend not to mention all flathead, salmon, travelly and luderick they can keep. And if fishing with their family-a lot more.”
“On the other hand, 200 pro fishos (man, I am a pro now! ) catch 10 fish per boat for 2 people for a weekend of which all bream (and flathead, travelly, luderick and salmon) go back to the water unharmed. And by the way some "pros" go home with doughnuts”.

Obviously, not every “average recreational fisho” WILL kill 20 bream a weekend. I am an average fisho (very average) and I would struggle to catch 20 bream a weekend normally. The amount of the fisho’s that are seen at my local boat ramp, stating they didn’t catch very much at all, normally outweighs the amount of fishermen that catch bag limits regularly. Not sure what you mean by “flathead salmon trevally and luderick they can keep”. Bag limits apply to those species as well.

1. Ok, I should have said "can legally keep". Does it make any difference to the the context of the sentence? Would you feel better if I said " 20 flathead, 20 Australian salmon, 20 travelly and 10 luderick"? This is Victorian bag limits by the way. And some people can do better than that.

You cannot deny the fact that during a comp all this by-catch goes back in the water immediately instead of being kept as some recreational fishos would do.
I myself came a long way from taking fish for dinner to a firm believer in C&R. I am not saying that every fisho who's not fishing comps keeps all the fish he caught, but nobody would do it during the comp (see the Thread Title).

You also mention that pro’s catch of 10 fish per boat for a weekend. My maths is that it is 20 fish per boat per weekend, if both anglers catch a full bag. Your figure is right for 1 day of comp fishing, not a weekend.

2. I should have clarified this: Vicbream Classics bag is 5 fish per boat (2 people) per day - 10 fish for a weekend. ABT, yes, 5 fish per angler per day.

You also state that these bream and other associated bi-catch go back unharmed. I have firsthand knowledge that this fish do not go back unharmed
3. Ok, I should have said with minimal harm as some so called "pros" use barbless hooks or keeping fish in the landing net in the water while removing hooks to minimise the stress.

and a percentage suffer some sort of harm as a result of being caught.

4. 1% 5%, 10% ?

A bream comp proposed to be held up here (cancelled mind you) had all competitors driving back from the boat ramp, along a bumpy road at highways speed to a weigh in about 20km’s down the coast. It would have been interesting to see how many bream were injured in that trip.


5. How many if any? Ok, 20 km in an aerated and circulated livewell. Maybe organisers of that comp should have thought about bringing the weigh in area a little closer. I agree with you here.

“Bream get upset or they might die if not released in the same spot? Is there any scientific data to support this claim?”

Your reply seems to be mocking the concerns raised.

6. There was no intention to mock anyone here. Honestly, do you yourself believe that releasing bream in the different area of the same waterway (say 1 km away or even less) would do any significant harm?

If bream were in a certain part of the system, due to the fact that the environmental requirements, reached their needs (For example, Food sources, what quality, oxygen rate, salinity rate – a whole number of environmental factors) and if they were removed from this microclimate (This is scientific fact, check out “Elements of ecology, 7th edition, T. Smith & R. Smith 2009”).
This could quite possibly have a negative impact on the bream and their chances at survival and spawning ability.

7. I think bream are much tuffer fish than you think


“I cannot comment on the amount of other comps in Vic. (clubs, etc.) happening throughout a year, but in this discussion we are limiting ourselves to only those two”.

It seems surprising that a thread titled “Is comp fishing sustainable” is only being limited to 1 state in Australia, where there is only 2 known comps, for the entire year throughout the state.

8. I should have been more clearer on that, meaning 2 types of comps I can comment on. My mistake.
With Vicbream Classics the comps in the same water system could be 6-8 months apart or even once a year. I cannot see any significant pressure on the system some posters are worried about.
Also, some of the Vicbream Classic comps are limited to say 40 boats if the waterway is considered to be too small.
For exact number of VBC and ABT comps in each state refer to respective websites.

It is also mentioned that most “comp” boats are running low emission outboards. I’d agree with this, but what about the effects of wash from these boats having on erosion on riverside banks?

9. Ever heard of the term "Speed limit"?

What about the effect of fisho’s using electric over weed beds, effectively being used as “lawn mowers”.

10. You are not serious, are you?:rolleyes:

I am trying to put across the argument that Comp fishing is not the ONLY problem affecting estuaries, but combined with over fishing recreationally

11. Refer to you previous comment on "bag limits"

over fishing by professionals

12. Totally agree.

and the affect of other environmental factors.

13. Much more harm than C&R for sure.



No hard feelings mate, we all are in the same boat on this subject (more or less).
Cheers and good fishing to all :)

[Zenburger]

Some contries have now banned lead jigheads altogether from any comp fishing.
Very good point by the way.

Reckon we should do the same thing nasty stuff for sure, already well and truly in our food chain and linked to all sorts of health problems.

Maybe something that makers could consider or would seem to be a good opportunity for some enterprising person to come up with a good alternative.

Zen

[forsterfisho]

No hard feelings mate, we all are in the same boat on this subject (more or less).
Cheers and good fishing to all :)

I agree Alex,

Good to see that a debate can take place on here without turning into a nasty fight.
Atleast this topic, is leading me towards a certain caree path.
Regards
ff

[powderfish]

.....comps have NO effect on catch rates after comps.

.....If you think one or two comps a year signicantly impacts other anglers from catching fish this then this is WRONG!

You have had a dig at people about generalised comments, that's all you have made so far.

If you are serious about impact on fishing enviroments, then look at commercial fisheries in estuaries, the practices of kill fishing comps based on points, the poor management of agricultural run off around river communities.

Stompy, I don't want to make a dig at anyone or bring any bad blood into this thread. Just a good discussion mate. Let's avoid comments like the first two I've highlighted above unless you can back up your claims.

Let's also bring this back to the basics.

This thread is about all fishing tournaments Australia-wide. It just happens to be slightly bream and Vic biased cause it's my personal experience and this is a bream forum.

Yes, I'm aware that there are much bigger problems threatening the success of our fishing future such as commercial fishing and kill comps, but I suspect a discussion about such things would yield much common ground on our thoughts and not tell us anything new. Also it's good and well to say that at least we're better than previous generations and we're within the law, etc, but as a Gen Y, I am not able to compare first hand to previous practices and perhaps have higher expectations.

C&R comp fishing has many benefits and I don't want to see it disappear. This thread is just a forum for questioning whether it's being run as best as possible and ensuring that the bottom line is our fish and not the $$$.

Brad McDonald, 'sustainable' in the context I was referring too relates to environment and communities. This includes the fish, the natural surrounds and the lifestyles of the local communities involved. The financial survivability of the comps is a separate issue yet it is indirectly affected by how future comps are run and perceived by the community.

ForsterFisho, your replies are excellent and much appreciated. Your unbiased and thought-provoking replies are the sort of discussion I was looking for. Thanks!

Cheers.

Powderfish

[Jacob59]

Wow took me so long to read all that, many good point great discussion guys, but have to agree that with all the local town comps that there are many more species being hammerd much hard then bream, Here in Coffs Habour there is Coffs habrour Fishing Club which has its BRE,Deep Sea, Game Fishing comps most are held every 2 weeks some being each week, and theres also the Green House traven BRE comp every week, and its disgusting to see how fish get killed here every week small or not, the only real thing that I personaly think could have positive impact on fishing over all would be to have the Current Bag limits of all fish halved and then some more probly, thats what id do if i was head of Fisheries, hhhmmm maybe ill join the fisheres... could be possilbe in 15-20 years of hard work .... :D

[stompy]

Powderfish,

First of all you don't need to tell me which comments I can and cannot write. Both are absolutely correct, unlike the dribble comming from you who has no experience with C&R comps.

Like I said comps have no effect on catch rates after comps. I mentioned the rivers I fish and caught 20 plus fish in both systems within a week/fortnight of a comp and regualry do over summer in particular. I could also add Lake Macquarie, Tweed and Hawkesbury Rivers to those as well. Have fished them before after and during comps. I have found it easier to catch fish in all these waterways after comps than during comps.

COMPS DO NOT AFFECT CATCH RATES, at least on the East coast of NSW in the rivers I fish anyway.

Another point is that during a comp catching 10 fish per boat is difficult and rarely boats outside the top 10 account for full bags on both days. The reason is that Bream are reasonably smart and the fish do "shut down" and become difficult to catch when 50+ boats are throwing lures around the same area. The fish are there just become less active, the fish settle down once the boat traffic resides. So during comp its hard to catch fish, after comp becomes easier.

I don't know what further information you want. I can post photos, but that dosn't prove when I caught them.

I asked for some of the "good arguements against tournements" to be posted, still haven't seen one from you. Reason is because you have based you opinions and anything you have written on hearsay only.

You like fosterfisho's reply's because you feel it gives you some vindication, yet anyone who post information on actual observation you choose to disregard.

Fosterfisho raises a point about fish being taken 20 km's down a bumpy road. Whilst not ideal I can assure you once again fish swim off quite well in good knick. Fish for the aquarium trade are caught in South Amercia a shipped all over the world, these fish are far more delicate than bream. I have transported Aquarium fish 100's of KM in a plastic bag and introduced them to a totally new environment and they have lived happily for years.

Tagging is also brought up, it takes a cetain skill to ensure a tag is correctly placed in a fish, an incorrect tag can be fatal. I have tagged oceanic species but not bream personally. Tagging also has a reliance on people actually knowing what to do with a tagged fish once they catch one, who the average bait bream fisho or commercial fisho do anything with a tag?

The rivers up here flood on regular basis, the water salinity and PH change quickly and I have caught bream in water that tastes almost fresh. It would also seem logical that the fish are moved serveal kilometers overnight with little effect to thier health.

Like I said before go fish a comp and form some opinions of your own.

Like you I am also passionate about fish and ensure those I return, are returned to the water in the best possible condition.

Regards,

Regards,

[stompy]

---Quote---
I have transported Aquarium fish 100's of KM in a plastic bag and introduced them to a totally new environment and they have lived happily for years.
---End Quote---
I hope you are talking about 'aquariums' and not natural environments. 'Experts' such as you need to be aware of the fish translocation laws that are in place to protect our fisheries from ruination by introduced species. If I have misread your initial quote I apologise, but for those that release introduced aquarium fish into our waterways, they need to be shot with a pellet of their own sh!t.

As to your views on comp fishing and the effects? I see no proven data either, just hearsay to back up your own point of view. Have you done the research to measure the effects of bream being released in areas other than where they were captured (in each system) or is your opinion based on your observations as are mine?

Can you at least point me to some peer reviewed scientific papers that back up what you are saying? No? Well despite the fact that I may well agree with you about releasing bream elsewhere causing no harm based on my personal experience, you cannot criticise ForsterFisho for using his personal experiences to make a statement. In essence you cannot criticise someone for a lack of scientific merit by yourself using evidence that lacks scientific merit. Also criticising everyone that posted before you by saying their posts were 'dribble' and then offering nothing but drivel yourself, is not a recipe for winning the debate.

As to having to try a competition before judging it..... are you for real dude? By the time I was 5y.o. I already knew the answer to that one. That is the most facile of arguments.

A lot of us on here don't fish comps, will never fish comps, don't read about comps, and don’t care about comps. While I personally I have remained silent as it is only my opinion and something I am comfortable to feel/keep to myself for the most part, for me competition fishing is the lowest form of our past time. It just seems to bring out the worst in so many people.

The debate here has been about whether competition fishing is sustainable. So far it smacks of those with a self interest in competition fishing acting all self righteous in their defence of their ‘sport’. They seem to attack anyone that holds a differing opinion and state that their competition has no negative effects. If they were honest and thoughtful they would at least realise that everything we do in the realm of nature has both positive and negative impacts and there is always a trade off between the two. The notion that 40-50 boats roaring up and down a waterway for three days, hooking hundreds of fish, leaving behind kilograms of lead, line and hooks, fumes, causing damage to the banks through wash erosion, ruining the ambiance for other water users and more; are not going to have a negative impact is seriously deluded at best.

Perhaps the economic injection into the community outweighs the negatives when all is said and done. Either way it’s an interesting topic that I had never given a second thought and maybe one that the tournament organisers can turn into a positive by donating time or money into some sort of habitat restoration work and publicising the work done.

Tight lines
TB

PS- fishing for spawning fish is like shooting ducks on the nest!!!*G* At least in the trout world. A problem that needs to be resolved as it is a huge target for those that would abolish fishing tournaments and fishing in general.
**************



Troutbum,

Yes, I am talking about Aquarium fish kept in aquariums often had to travel to purchase fish I wanted. Breed African and South American Cichlids for years, in tanks in garage. Agree people who do the wrong thing in this area should be shot with a pellet of there own Sh!t.

Its funny, people offer opinions based on personal observation and they cop the "so called experts" tag. I stand by every observation as true.

My views on Comp fishing are based on fishing plenty of tournements over the past few of years and fishing these waterways regulary after. In fact I catch more fish in more fish in them now then I did prior to comp fishing.

Not critising people for their own views, just sharing mine.

IMO it is dribble, Powderfish has based all his info on hearsay, says he has heard some really good arguments nothing he has actually observed, I would love to hear these. I have travelled all over the East Coast and mixed with lots of different people and have never heard any community outrage or concern over comps. There are always plenty of members of the community there at the weigh in's and I have only ever heard positive comments. Once again pardon me for sharing actual observations.

So you think my comments are self righteous regarding my "sport". Whether there are tournements or not I would still fish as much either way. But I have based my comments I what I have observed. I could take the alternate view, maybe powderfish stuggles to catch a fish and is concerned comps will make it harder for him, geez that would be self righteous wouldn't it:rolleyes:. but I would dare mention that for fear of retribtuion.

There is at least 50 boats roaring up and down our waterways most weekends and a comp once or twice a year makes little difference. In the school holidays double that for just about every day of the week. Must be alot quieter in Tassie, good luck to you.

The damage done by poor farm practices and poorly manged flood waters far out weighs any impact rec fishos could ever have.We have had fish kills from "acid Sulfate" run off that killed everything from sharks to guppies with hundreds of tons of fish killed in 2001 and 2007. Both time the river was closed for 6 months to all forms of fishing, Dead fish were pilled knee deep along the foreshore and council had semi trailers in removing dead fish. Guess what on a summers morning it is quite easy to catch 20 Bream and the river is alive with fish again. So forgive me when a get a bit narky when some one says that C&R fishing have a impact on local fish stocks.

You also have a dig around the " give it a go and judge". Although you were the worlds smartest 5yo, I think its valid. Go and have look at how the fish are released and cared for by anglers, see how many swim away or just float there. Particapte and see how anglers treat fish. Much better than the kill and grill comps where every thing with a legal size is killed for points.

I guess you didn't see my first post in relation the alternative, kill and grill comps which are help regulary, sometimes monthly by numerous clubs along the east coast.

Seems as though it is fine for people with no first hand exposure to be critical and for those who have participated, they shouldn't be passionate for fear of being branded self serving and "expert".


Regards,

[trout_bum]

Hey Stompy

I removed my post within 5 mins of posting for not wanting to create a fight. I reread it a couple of times and thought ...just let it go....but obviously you just want an argument as you cut and paste it from your email...

As to picking off your rebuttal bit by bit its just a waste of time. You are just going to try and do the same with each point I make and on and on we will go with no resolution in our immediate future. ;)

My point about 50 boats is to point out that regardless of how careful you think you may be with your boat and the fish; your actions have affects. Whether you like it or not, and now matter how you attempt to justify it, your comps have negative effects just as much as they hove positive ones.

As to C&R I haven't killed a fish in perhaps 15 years being a professional guide working in Australia, New Zealand and the USA. During that time I have released tens of thousands of fish. Even so, I am realistic about it and realise that with all my warm and fuzzy good intentions; some released fish will die and that's taking into account that 99% of my fish are released immediately.

Keep them in a livewell all day during summer with low DO while flying around at warp factor ten with my gas guzzling bass boat at max revs; and a higher percentage of those 'carefully' handled but released fish, will probably die.

Failing to recognise and acknowledge any of the negative aspects of the sport may gain you some traction here on a website dedicated to bream fishing, but I guarantee your 'opinions' will be treated a little differently by the community at large. Particularly the green anti-fishing fraternity that grow in number with each passing day that modern man becomes more isolated from the food chain in their concrete jungles.

Then again you guys have the one truly environmentally pure event on the planet. Maybe you should get the job running PR for the new and clean Melbourne GP.:p

Ciao and tight lines....

[forsterfisho]

Ok guys, Seems to be getting off thread off here.

Is comp fishing sustainable. As my understanding of the topic goes, we are discussing is comp fishing sustainable. Not the effects of acid sulphate soils, the effects of pro fishing, the effects of recreational fisher's and other tangiable factors.
Obviously there is a lack of scientific peer reviewed data - I've had briefly scanned some of the scientific data bases i can access (via uni) and have found nothing on the effects of comps.
If this was to be researched in reality. The study would take years, as there is far too many variables to isolate and research individually then apply to a whole overview of the study.
How ever, I think it is fair to say that comp fishing will have an impact of the environment. If a natural occurying resourse is disturbance by an outside influence than it has been effected, and therefore impacted.
I am not saying that there isnt other activities that are not havin an impact on the ecosystem.

As i said before, due to the lack of peer reviewed data and only the hear say and first hand experiances of people that have differing views upon comp fishing and fishing in general it will be very hard for an answer to come for this topic of discussion.
As when peoples observations and oppinions are taken into consideration, bias needs to be taken into consideration, for example if a person has never fished a comp, or done little fishing, and they read the media about depletion of resources, they probaly would considering rec fishing bad. If somebody that has fished plenty of comps and won an amount of prizes and has no directly observed any thing bad from comps, then this person would consider comp fishing good. There is no right or wrong here.
It was mentioned that transporting fish for an aquarium had no negative effect on fish. I believe this was targetted at saying fish being transported has no effect (which is highyl doubtable). it is not saying that transporting one species to a different environment is ok. (this isnt - cane toads are example and so is didymo)

So in conclusion, I think people replying to this thread should by now realise that data is hard to come by, experiments would be costly, problematic and long to carry out and peoples oppinions can be clouded by bias and others hear say.

Hope this doesnt offend anybody, as its not meant to.

Now back to calculus.
ff

[trout_bum]

I would rather do calculus than argue on a forum among my fellow fisherman...*G* I'm off to photograph some mayfly before we lose the midday sun.....

[stompy]

Trout Bum,

I have a hide like a Walrus, usually nothing worries me to much. Just passionate about both fish and fishing.

Foster Fisho,

Just trying to put some perspective around impact of C&R fishing as opposed to major enviromental, with the point being if a river can recover from this twice a bit of comp pressure will have little impact.

I don't usually get fiesty on these boards, some comments hit a nerve. The Walrus has calmed!!

Cheers

PS -- TB, that power bream finesse is going strong !

[BLACK SWAN]

Power fish,
Is comp fishing sustainable?
I don't think so.

I've done a few comps and enjoyed them immensely.
I've watched people like Bear put their heart and sole into it
only to get their teeth kicked in.
Dave and Tim put in enormous effort only to be criticized by those who do nothing anyway.
Until the profit is taken away from the sport it won't grow anyway.
It needs an amateur group.
As for C&R diminishing stocks ,I think they have a far greater chance of
survival than cutting their heads off.

I think the Bream will be around long after the breamo's.

JMO
Gary.

[vlad da''lad]

its not doing much harm its just that the local are very terotorial and dont like people rocking up in there little towns to have a good time for the weekend ,and all these fishing comps support the local comunity .not only that but it promotes holiday destenations all year round so the locals should be happy it gives them plenty of work and buissness all year round.

[vlad da''lad]

what does harm see article on toxins all the storm water that runs into the lake rivers dams thats the problem .