Four stroke vs Two Stroke ???

[Bream Master]

Is the extra money for a four stroke justified for bream fisho's considering how much time we spend trolling with electrics. They are super quiet and a delight to use, but is the extra cost worth it ???

Warren.

[Dave W]

IMHO, I don't think so.

All my fishing, be it trolling or spinning, is done using the electric - the 'big donk' just gets me to the spot and back.

Sure, it would be nice to be able to have a conversation on the move without having to yell - but it 'aint worth the extra dollars.

Funnily, the price difference between the 2 of them is getting smaller - hopefully in the near future you'll be able to make a choice between them for reasons other than price.

Cheers,

[chris_lemess]

Quieter
Hassle free (fill up w/ unleaded at random petrol stations)
Starts perfectly on a cold morning
Better re-sale value
Better for the environment (rated to 2006)

Plus they are getting lighter and cheaper constantly. I'd say it's definately worth it if you can afford it. Sure - if say you are stretching the funds to buy the boat let alone the donk - a 2 stroke will do. I reckon plan the 4-stroke in with the package though...

Chris

[Big Muddie]

I'm with Chris on this one.

Having been a 2-stroke owner and since moved to a 4-stroke (and up in power), I can confidently say that I have NEVER made a better decision.

My 2 banger was a 30HP Merc Lite. The new motor is a 40HP Yammie. For an average 4 day trip, fishing and crabbing, I would use all of 50-60L of premix fuel in the Merc. For the same trip now I use at worst 30L of unleaded - and I now cruise at the top speed of the old Merc at less than half the fuel cost and a whole lot less noise. The amount of time I now spend on the water means that in a year I will have saved in the order of 300-350L of fuel and quite a bit of 2-stroke oil.

The quietness is remarkable. And that does make a difference over time - believe me. The lack of smoke and more importantly, the lack of oil slick no matter how little is also very important for our environment.

At the same time, Dave has a good point in that if you are only using your motor to get to and from your fishing location with very little major movement in between then a 2-stroke is adequate - provided of course that the to and fro part is not a major distance.

All that said, it's a matter of personal preference and ability to pay - I would never go back to a 2 banger now but there are still lots of people out there who will be more than happy with their 2's.

[chris_lemess]

You said it.

GEEZ! I forgot to mention fuel savings! That's like a major aspect! I can go for two very long bream trips 6hrs plus with plenty of travelling on a 20L tank. It's a 15hp Honda 4 stroke and it drinks barely anything!

Chris

[Ravin]

I would not run out & sell a 2 stroke that was in good nick to buy a 4 stroke but on a new boat I would definitely get a 4 stroke for the reasons mentioned above. They are quiet & very fuel efficient & more enviromentally friendly as well. I have a 50HP EFI 4 stroke on my new Hornet & I am very happy with the performance. If you were going to mount one on an older hull the extra weight of the 4 stroke must be taken into account.

Gday
Being a former motocrosser, i can shed a bit of light on this subject. About 6 years ago yamaha made a revolutionary four stroke bike which since then has become a best seller. The new bike's engine weighs less than the equivalent capacity two stroke (yes its lighter!!!) and produces only slightly less power.
All this technology is being put into outboards aswell. Honda and Yamaha are the leaders in motorbikes and looks to be translating to the same in outboards.
Also the noise factor. It is proven that quiet motors cause less fatigue than louder motors, and this translates to more fishing time, and better concentration (that is spelt wrong but oh well).
Hence why luxury cars are so damn quiet!
Anyways that is my bit on this subject!

[cyclops]

I have switched to a 4s after years of 2s albeit small 15hp 2s. I now have a Yammie 60hp 4 stroke and it is fantastic. Like most, the big motor gets me where I want to fish, then the Minn kota cuts in.

Believe it or not, I find that the 60 uses about the same amount of fuel as my old Yammie 15! and no smoke, no mixing, and its soo quite I have to check the tell tale to see it is running.

Another thing to consider is that 2stroke is under suspicion as a carcinogen. Many of our freshwater rivers and lakes are used to supply drinking water and dissolved 2stroke oil is suspect. I have heard that some lakes overseas are already electric only or 4stroke.

pete

[fooltothabream]

The Yamaha 15hp 4 stroke 2001 model I recently bought from Access boating is brilliant. Maximum fuel usage at full revs is 5.6 lt per hour. And it pushes my 3.7 punt along at 22 knots. Couldnt be happier.
Dennis

[FisherMatt]

In the 5 years Ive owned my 40 yam 2 stroke, apart from its 10hr service, it has NEVER been to an outboard mechanic for a service. I do all the service work myself coz it it just that easy!!!!!

Outboards should be serviced anually, and at last check, a service on a three cylinder two stroke O/B will set u back a couple of hunderd bucks. Therefore, I've just saved myslef 1000 bucks since Ive had the motor. Thats about 1100 litres of fuel!!!!!

Now, please correct me if im wrong, but over a five year period, im not sure that doing what we do (breamin), that a comparable, (ie 40hp), four stroke is gunna use 1100 litres less fuel????
And thats not taking into account service costs of the four stroke itself, which are dearer that two strokes.

If i bought a new rig JUST for breamin, id have a two stroke.

If i was gunna burn hundereds of litres of fuel, say, heading offshore for bottom fish, id probably go the four.

Horses for courses.

Cheers

[Brody]

that's good thinking Matt, we have a 435quintrex topender witha 3 cylinder 35 johnson 2 stroke on the back.

we use our boat doing mainly inshore fishing and at the most prolly 4 or 5 kilometres out for dhuies etc.

we workd out that it would be better to hang on to our motor and buy a leccie than sell this motor and spend about another 3 grand on a four stroke when we don't need it.

and for just general breaming most of the day your under electric power so i don't think the extra cost adds up four a four stroke.

cheers, Brody

[Tony]

Originally posted by Rod
I agree that 4 strokes are quiet and cheap to run but they are also a bit more to service. Going for them is the fact that you can carry a bit less fuel but somtimes the dollar saving would pay for a new Min Kota or ????

The new two strokes are alot better then they used to be.

Rod

Hi I will put in my two bobs worth if i can ,I just sold my 435 Hornet with a 50 Yammy 4 stroke, My last service was over $300 I think that is dear.:( Although I loved the motor and it was quite it made baoting a pleasure.
----------
Ask Ira he has been in my old boat.!! :)

I have just got a new 475 Hornet and am putting on the back a new 75 Hp E-tec from Evinrude. It is a 3 cly twostroke motor fuel injected,just past Carb 3 USA standards and is Maintinence free for 3 years or 300 hours of normal use. :D Gotta love that and has gotta save money and you can buy a new Minkota with the saveings.

My reason for this choice was Over here in the south east we have big Dams and Alrge rivers and I do more than just fish for Bream , with 2 young boys and other things you will need more than a tiny motor.

Before the E-tec the only option was a 60hp 4 Banger for a 475m hornet which to me was a bit under gunned,the next jump up was to heavy for the Transom weight. With the E-tech it is 138 Kilo's and can troll down to 500rpm and No smoke.:D That I will love. and the fuel econemy of a 4 banger. I am haveing a dip at this new technoligy and have faith it will be good.! :)
They do come in lower size outboards as well.


http://www.evinrude.com./docs/100/0_OT.htm

[fatman]

I'm with Matt and Dave here, I service my own (30 Yamaha, 2 stroke) and it cost bugger all to do.

gear oil- $7
plugs- x3 - $12
grease- $8

That's a cheap service for under thirty dollars. It is a 2001 model so runs 100:1 mix so it does'nt blow any (or very little) smoke, and at WOT it is as quiet (or noisy) as a 4 stroke.

For the amount of electric work I do in my fishing, I could'nt justify th extra cost of the 4 stroke at the time when I bought my boat (almost double) and I like the grunt of the 2 stroke.

FATMAN

[FisherMatt]

Leon

That E-tech engine looks like a really neat peice of equipment.
I too was surprised at the weight, my current two stroke only weighs about 80kg.

I think u'll find that it is the fuel injection system of the E-tech that adds to its weight (and price!!!!!!!)
Other outboard manufacturers dont do fuel injected two strokes in that horsepower range.
Im pretty sure if u got a price on say a yammie or merc carburetted two stroke, it'd be less than the four.

Cheers

[Tony]

I will agree the price is higher than other 2 stroke motor's but you have to pay for the technoligy and what you will use it for.!

I am talking 75hp and above for my boat and there is only the 75 optimax, 80Hp Yammy 4 banger, Johson 70 4 banger they are all heavy for Hp rated motor ,and hence the E-tec 75 for me.

With this motor I can troll all day,Try that with a cheap to service 2 stroke. :( can not do it. Fuel cost will be a huge saveing as I do lots of Klm on large Lakes and rivers.

Last time I quoted a 60hp 4 Stroke yammy it was over $8000 once above that 60 hp the price jumps up real quick.:(

But put it like this, A cheap Aerinos Shimano reel and a Stradic will do the same job but one better than the other. I know which one i would buy.:)

I work in the comm's industry and heaps are changeing over to ADSL internet cause it's better. Old dial up modem will do the job but slower and not as good.!!

Old story Horses for courses and my E-tech has a THREE year non declining warranty.:)

You all have good and valid points though.

Bit of a tossup with etec IMHO.

The disadvantage that 2 strokes have traditionally had - has been in emissions.

Becuase the ports are open while the fuel / air mix is scavenged into the combustion cylider from the crankcase, a proportion of unburnt fuel/oil is emitted with the exhaust, which is why 2 strokes have had trouble meeting emissions requirements.

The new injection technology however allows the timing of the fuel oil mix to be delivered into the cylinder AFTER the ports are closed, hence the reduction in unburnt hydrocarbons emissions is substantive and they are achieving very comparable results to a 4 stroke apparently.

That said - it was failed direct injection technology (FICHT) that sent OMC broke, with recalls / power head failures and so on only a couple or 3 short years ago.

Now they have been bought by Canadian Bombadier corp - and redesigned. Bombadier are Kings of the two stroke snow mobile engine tech business...

Since they re launched the evinrude line Bombadier have divested themselves again of the Evinrude / Johnston trade name - I think selling the OB business into a family owned business for whatever legal / tax or potential liability reasons we can only guess at.

How long Etech lives(or does) is anyones guess as it's still early days. The initial results look promising.

One thing no 2 stroke so far can get past, is the fact that the oil mixed with the fuel isn't fully combusted in the burn process - in fact it's designed to condebnse out of the mix upon firing to lubricate the cylinder walls / rings.

If this wasn't the case, then you would be able to run a 2 stroke without oil, without it seizing, now wouldn't you!

So - wheres that unburn't oil end up?

The answer is in the water - whichever way you look at it - it comes out the exhaust into the water.

How many 1 litre bottles of 2 stroke oil does an average boater use a year?... 6 or a dozen?

Would yu willingly walk down the barrack street jetty and pour that same amount of oil into the swan river knowing that with the rising / lowering tide, it was going to kill the barnacles on the timber snags that your prized bream munch on to survive?

I doubt many of us would be able to bring ourselves to do that.

The insidious thing about 2 strokes is that, because we mix the oil and fuel at the garage or at home and never see it again, we just assume - it "dissapears", never giving much thought about where too.

I recall seeing the results of some water testing from Lake Jasper when it was being included into the DeEntrecasyeaux nat park back in my CALM days, and even this freshwater pristine lake in a national park showed traces of oil and lead (from outboard fuel) because it occasionally used to get used as a water ski lake by a few die hards from Manjimup prepared to tow their boats all the way in there on the 4wd sand tracks.

Simply put - the damn stuff just about never goes away - it accumulates.

Take the number of boats that you see on the Swan River, and multiply them all over a years use...bye say 6 x 1 litre 2 stroke oil containers - and go pour that amount of oil into the Swan and it could only be best described as a major toxic waste spill in environmental terms.

Then look at the problems the Swan R and it's fish already have with algae blooms, sewerage spills, mass mortalities, red spot fungus etc etc - and I think we have to come to a point where finally we say no more.

Basically I think we are at that point - mauybe not yet for the ocean, but definitely for inland fresh waters...

Clean and all as 2 strokes now are with the new etch technology, - I still don't believe, they have a place in our delicate inland freshwaterways in this country...

The oceans for a while longer - maybe so...but not our precious scarce inland waterways in this desert nation.

Thats how I see it, theres more than a price / weight consideration - theres the future of the resource.

From this the question then begs - Should bream comps allow the use of 2 stroke OB's?

"Release the fish alive" so they, (and the food chain they rely upon) can die from oil contamination, which by allowing use of 2 strokes, the comps unwittingly encourage? :confused:

Maybe it's something to think about for future rules changes...

How the fish die - whether bye oil or nets is immaterial if they die, if you see where I''m headed..

Cheers!

[Stu_000]

Thanks for all that info spec. Trouty. All very interesting. Still I don't know whether to go with the 15hp Johnson or pay an extra $1500 for the 15hp Honda 4 stroke. I'm probably swayed by the oil argument from Trouty. Does any have/had upgraded from smaller o/b's around 15hp from 2 to 4 stroke? Just want some more testimonials on the 4. I'm streaching the budget to go with the 4 but I will if I'm fully convinced. Its only going to used for local river fishing no offshore stuff.

Red spot fungus, algal blooms, mass fish die offs, it's not like the fish you seek ahavent already got it bad in terms of environmental stress....

Who in their right mind would empty a litre bottle of 2 stroke oil neat into the water off the barrack st jetty?

If any breamer saw someone do that, they would punch em in the gob most likely.

Yet because we pour it in the fuel tank and it magically disapears...it can't be doing any environmental harm??? :rolleyes:

The reality is - it's helping to slowly kill the rivers and the fish you all love - they are BOTH being loved to death by 2 strokes, not to mention farmers - pumping irrigating etc etc.

Not all the 2 cycle oil is burned during the combustion process - it precipiates out and lubricates the cylinder walls on each stroke and is expelled with the exhaust gasses each stroke.

With a 4 stroke it stays in the sump.

Theres a zillion other good and bad reasons to justofy both technologys - but hands down 2 strokes LOSE every time when it comes to the water and the fish...

I don't know many folks who would go backward from a 4 stroke to a 2 stroke these days.

You guys have pretty much covered the mechanical, weight, fuel savings, and other issues...but environment should be number 1 IMHO.

How many Breamers would volunteer a Saturday to "clean up unburnt 2 cycle oil from streamsiode vegetation, waterfowl etc once a year?

How many litres a year does a average 2 cycle OB owning breamer pour thru his engine into our waterways via his engines exhaust?

Reformed smokers are the worst for nagging about the anti smoking message - and reformed 2 stroke owqners aren't that far behind when it comes to healthy waterways.!

Cheers!

[bubble]

All,
Interesting to note that the E-Tec meets and exceeds 2008 EPA standards on emissions and is rated 3 Star Ultra low emmisions by CARB. It also meets Euro 2006 emissions standards.
You may find it hard to believe but there are a lot of 4 strokes out there that do not meet these requirements......so before you all rush off and buy or talk up your 4 strokes you should do your homework.
The new E-tecs are also more fuel efficient and just as quiet. Hel you can even start them without a battery, great for guys that forget to turn things off!!!!!!

And just one more comment on 4 strokes.....Where does all that used oil (a known carcenogenic) end up? Have you ever asked the guy that does your servicingfor you where he disposes of his used oil?

[Mick]

The Etec is certainly cleaner than a normal 2 stroke which is a good thing but it doesn't exceed the standards of any of the 4 strokes. The Etec, Honda, Yamaha and Merc all have a USA 2006 EPA rating. The Etec has a 2004/2008 CARB rating as does the Honda and I'm fairly sure both the Yams and Mercs have the same rating.

In relation to oil, my service centre actually adds on a disposal fee so the oil is disposed of properly or recycled for other uses.

The Etec has some good attributes but they are heavy for a 2 stroke. The 50HP Etec without a tiller handle comes in at 107kg compared to the Honda 50HP which has gone up from 95kg to 102kg with the addition of the new tiller handle for 03.

[bubble]

This is what I mean about doing ones homework....

Evinrude E-Tec 40, 50, 60, 75 and 90 meet or exceed the following emissions standards:

USA EPA 2006
CARB 2008(3 Star)
EU 2005/ 2006

Honda EFI 4 strokes:
USA EPA 2006
Carb 2008
Do not meet EU2005/2006

Mercury 4 strokes same as Honda

Yamaha I would assume same as Honda

So, E-Tec is the cleanest technology to date, meeting the best 4 stroke to date that being an EFI for total reportable emissions as laid down by the EPA, CARB but beating them with European Union Recreational Craft Directive (Euro 2005/2006) emissions compliance.
Interesting also to note that waste oil disposal is not part of any of these emissions standards and yet with 2 stroke DI it is alraedy part of the compliance. I guess if they were fair they would have to report the waste oil usage?

[Tony]

Hi,

I am one of them people that has gone from a Yammy 4-Stroke to a 75 E-tec from Evinrude. After a test drive in one and doing my homework had no hesitation what so ever to jump back to the 2-stroke. Technoligy has changed so much in motors that it is hard for all of us to keep up with. I think I am on a winner with my new E-Tec. :D

I have had it for all of 5 hours use and have loved every minute of the low noise level at all rpm's and no smoke, I am not sure of fuel stats yet as the Stupid fuel gauge aint working .:(

I keep lifting the Cowl to see if any oil has been used and at one stage was wondering if the oil injection was woking as it has only used ever so little oil.:D But i know it is.
It has the grunt of a 2-stroke at all revs,trolls smooth with no smoke or hickups, and stars within 3/4 turn of the flywheel.

It only weighs 141 Kilo's, for a 75Hp with this fuel econemy it is cheaper than a four stroke.

The quotes of being heavy of the 50hp I am not sure but the 50 Yammy I had was more than the 50 E-tec. The two years i got it serviced cost over $600 in parts and labour. Will save money on me E-tech in the first 6~12 months of use.

I am not Ofay with all the techno and other stuff you Speak of Trouty but I know I will be very Happy with my choice of Motor.
I pay for the dispose of my oil but where does it go. ?

[Davo28]

gear oil- $7
plugs- x3 - $12
grease- $8

That's a cheap service for under thirty dollars.

No disrespect intended here at all fatman but what youve described as a "service" is barely half of whats required. theres alot more to maintaining an outboard than just changing plugs, oil etc.

the most important part to servicing and maintaining your motor is in the bottom half.... the water pump, prop shaft, bung washers, drive shaft splines etc etc
My advice to anyone servicing their own O/B is to get hold of the specific workshop manual and test equipment and do it thoroughly!

It is vital to remove the leg and check the impeller for any cracks, nicks and general wear. If it looks even slightly suss...REPLACE IT! at the same time inspect the seals on the top of the water pump housing and also the seals around the prop shaft and ensure they are still in good condition. the last thing you want is water in the gearbox! It can be quite pricey to rectify. Make sure that every bolt that gets removed is cleaned up well with a wire brush and greased well with a good quality marine grease like "quicksilver 101" before putting it back. at the same time the drive shaft splines and prop shaft splines should get the same treatment. a build up of salt obviously leads to corrosion and if anyone has ever tried to drill out a snapped bolt or remove a drive shaft from the powerhead, prop from the prop shaft etc after corrosion has set in.... its a major chore and can be very expensive.
replacing the bung washers every service is also important, a squashed or torn washer WILL NOT keep water out of your gearbox. if you get water in there, by the time u get round to servicing it again it may have already caused considerable damage.
for the people that dont know..... checking your gearbox for water is simple. water will sit on the bottom of the box so if u gently crack open the lower bung screw and clean water comes trickling out first then you need a technician (the water will only run clear if it hasnt been running in the last 24hrs or so and been mixed up with the oil... in this case the oil will be a milky yellow even white colour)

its also advisable to get hold of a spark tester and compression tester as this is also very important. a weak spark could be caused by a number of things and is best checked out by a qualified technician. misfiring on one or a number of cylinders may be very slight and not always noticeable but it will cause damage if left unnoticed. same with compressions. all cylinders should have the same amount of compression and without a compression tester again it WILL go unnoticed and cause damage.

theres also the visual side of things... check all over the powerhead around the cylinder head and side cover for any salt deposits... if salt starts to ooze out it is strongly advised to remove the cylinder head cover and/or side cover and clean out the water galleries.... if u dont theres a fair chance youll cook your motor.

another important thing to ensure on an oil injected motor is that the calibration is set properly and by this i mean the right amount of oil/fuel ratio is being deposited.

there are numerous other things to be aware of when servicing your own motor so guys if u insist on doing it yourself...get the correct manual for your specific make/model O/B a few bits of test equipment and the right tools for the job and do it right.

Like i said before fatman this is in no way an attack on you. i read your thread and thought it would be a good opportunity to point out some important facts and hopefully help a few people out :)

cheers
Davo

Davo...that is one of hte best posts ive seen on here in quite some time mate.
Couldnt agree more about the servicing. Although i know didly squat about outboards, I used to race 2 Stroke motorbikes and servicing is definately more than just plugs and oil. The time is consumed in checking and cleaning as you said.:D
I cant remember, but I think I was told that the E-tec is using Orbital technology. Is this correct?

cheers

Dave

[bubble]

Dave, the E-tec does not use the Orbital system. That system is used by Merc. in their Optimax range. The Orbital system is a propriatory system that Merc. pay a license for.
The secret to E-Tec's success is in their simple injection system and that is also the secret to their emissions compliance.
The Orbital system uses an air compressor and fuel injection system. The air compressor is belt driven. It is a more complicated system than the straight Direct Inj. system used by E-Tec.
Bombardier use the Di system in their Snow Mobile and PWC range as well as in their Rotax range of small engines.

[Tony]

I know this is a W.A. site but if anyone here is in Southeast Queensland and is heading out to Somerset Dam on the weekend of the 12th January I will be there fishing with my son.

You are more than welcome t come and have a look and come for a spin if want to .
I will be fishing with my 8 year old son and will be doing a heap of trolling.
So look for the Blue 475 Hornet with the two stroke with no smoke comming out the back and say Hi.! :)

More than welcome.

[bubble]

Rod, just a couple of points I would like to question you on......

You say:
"The fact that etec has a higher standard of compliance is only due to them not submitting motors 4 years ago for standard testing then".

E-Tec was not around 4 years ago, although the Ficht range from 75 - 250hp was around and was and still is compliant with EPA and Carb.

You also say:
"The companies that now have till 2006 compliance are not going to rush out and get 2008 just because a late starter in the technology race has slightly overtaken them"

I would like to know who this 'late starter' is. Evinrude and Johnson have been around since 1921 and Bombardier have been around since 1937 and given the length of time they have been around and the resourses in Rotax, Ski Doo, Seadoo, Johnson and Evinrude they have I would say they have been a leader in the respective technology fields but not a late starter.
There may be some 4 stroke engine builders out their that will struggle with the new Euro 2005/2006 emission rating.

Water pumps and gear oil?
3 years/300hrs No dealer scheduled Maintenance

High volume, low flow, self flushing water pumps. Of coarse if some one hits a sandbar or mud bank and looses telltale flow it would need to be investigated. But that is repair not scheduled maint.
Gear oil - large volume gearcases and again if some one wraps some braid or whatever around the propshaft again that is repair not maint. Given the advances in gear oils, synthetic lubricants and seal materials I am surprised that it hasn't been done before.

Most cars these days have sealed for life diffs and transmissions and spark plugs that last 100,000Km, why not do the same in the marine industry. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done.
Maybe the poor dealer feels threatened......no more outragous service bills to unleash on the unsuspecting boating public.
The on/off highway heavy diesel industry now has 100,000km between oil and filter changes and their engines last 1.2 million Km or more......anmd some of that gear runs in atrocious conditions.

Just one more point I would like to make:

4 Stroke only waterways......be careful what you wish for because the cleanest total emission technology available today is Di 2 stroke....Di 2 stroke only waterways has a nice ring to it!!!!!!!

[bubble]

Rod, a couple more points and you should really do your homework.........
Euro 2005/2006 are the toughest Emissions regulations in the world and E-Tec meets these.

Quote "The reason they went broke in the first place was because they fell behind heavliy in technogical race."

Right up to the end of OMC they led the technology race with Ficht. And it was'nt Ficht or technology that put them out of business it was bad financial and management practises.
The current Ficht product is both EPA and Carb certified and was at its launch. Putting it way ahead of its competitors at the time of it's launch almost 8 years ago. OMC rejected Orbital due to expense, complexity of the system and no. of parts involved.

Quote "You have to admit that this product has been thrust on to the market with no real testing."

This product has been the best kept secret in the Marine World to date and has been extensively tested both in-the-field at factory level, dyno tested, tank tested and endurance tested at their dedicated test facility in both salt and fresh water. Tests include freezing, heating, WOT, no oil running, destruction testing etc.
This testing gives it a distinct advantage over other technologies and that is why it has a 3 year non declining warranty.

It is interesting to note that Mercury got its start in life in 1937 by buying a bankrupt outboard manufacturer. Ollie Evinrude started building outboards in 1907.

Not a proven technology in my book - product is being beta tested on the public at full retail prices.

Maybe time will prove me wrong (but i don't believe it likely!).

Most cars these days have sealed for life diffs and transmissions and spark plugs that last 100,000Km, why not do the same in the marine industry. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done

My comment would be that if your car breaks down you call the RAC and get a taxi, but if your OB breaks down you might drown!

Just becaise it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done in marine environment...

Aeroplanes engine servicing is VERY strictly controlled for the same reasons - peoples lives are at risk. IMHO - the same rationalisation applies to boats using OB's.

As far as Etek being environmentally cleaner than 4 stroke - get real, the 2 cycle oil goes into the water whichever way you cut n slice it and trying to bullshyte otherwise just to sell OB's is crapola IMHO.

You pour the 2 sroke oil in the fuel - and the etek has no way of scavenging that oil back and putting it in a container to be recycled - it goes out the exhuast hub INTO THE WATER and to keep claiming otherwise is just a deliberate lie designed to sell product - doing no ones credibility any good.

If people wish to choose 2 stroke technology and light weight in order to go for 2 strokes over 4 strokes because they don't care about the environment and transom bouyancy issues dictate thats the best course for them - then fine - but no need to bullshyte about the cleanliness of 2 strokes when it comes to oil in the water IMHO - thats just asking to be shot down.

When you can hand me back the 1 litre 2 stroke container full of the oil the Etek gets back after using it to lube the cyclinders - ready to be recycled - then come talk to me about 2 strokes - until then someones got hold a there ol fella and is stranglin it in public and it's pitiful to watch IMHO :D

Cheers!

[corey]

The Idea of a professional servicing my outboard at least once a year is a real piece of mind.
Its worth the cash to not have to "get out and push"

[bubble]

Trouty,
Fact :
E-Tec meets or exceeds the following Emissions standards:

Carb 2006
EPA 2008
Euro 2005/2006.

So stop going on about 'pouring 2 stroke oil in the waterways' and do some research. I find it helpful to do my research before making statements in a public arena, does ones credibilty no good at all.
There are currently 4 strokes out their that do not meet these standards....again do your research.

The above standards measure NOX, CO and HC. These tests are completed by Independant Government bodies. Carb. in California only, EPA in the rest of the USA and Euro by the European Union not by the manufacturer. All manufacturers must comply with the testing and meet the designated levels or face not being able to sell their product in the regions outlined. So how do you think a manufacturer complies, by telling lies? No, by putting the product forward for testing and getting certification.

The HC (Hydrocarbon) part of the test measures the amount of unburnt fuel (and oil) exiting to atmosphere. It is here that Di equals or betters most 4 strokes.

I would suggest that you do some reading on current 2 Stroke
Di technology be it Ficht, E-Tec, Optimax, HPDi or TLDi and then come back with some useful arguments. You do not as you put it 'pour oil in the fuel' not in a Di anyway.

As to Beta testing on the public, as I said earlier it has been extensively tested prior to release and carries a 3 year warranty, seems the manufacturer has a lot of confidence.


Rod, I too have been involved in the Marine Industry for a long time, nigh on 30 years. Most of that time in the various engine businesses including diesel.

some people will say anything to sell a 2 stroke! (in a market where you can't give em away!)

The fact is petrol evaporates off the water and unburnt 2 stroke oil doesn't - it pollutes, just look at the oil slick behind any 2 stroke and the unburnt oil dripping down the skeg after use - or the oily residue left on the plugs and so on..

Regardless how the oil gets into the cylinder (whether mixed in the fuel or injected directly) it still doesn't all burn - or it wouldn't be doing it's job of lubricating the cylinder, apriori it must then be exhausted out thru the prop hub along with the rest of the HC exhaust gasses from the burn't fuel.

Injecting it into the cylinder doesn't then somehow magically 'extract it back out again" after the combustion cycle and it doesnt all burn or the engine would seize!.

No one could argue that injection technology hasn't helped clean up 2 strokes emissions of unburnt hydrocarbons and also make them more fuel efficient..since the timing is now more controled - and combustibles / fuel can be injected to the cylinder after the induction port is closed over, rather than being scavenged premixed from the sump, this is in fact why (for 2 strokes) they are now much cleaner than they once were and exceed emissions standards we might have once not thought possible from a 2 stroke...

BUT

Lets not forget the same injection benefits are also being derived from 4 strokes, for the same reasons (injection after the air intake valve is closed) AND at the same time theres no oil being injected to be condensated out for lubrication purposes during combustion as there is in ANY 2 cycle, since the lube oil is in the sump where it can later be recovered and recycled.

The simple fact is - Oil goes in one end of a 2 stroke (any 2 stroke) and it comes OUT the other (exhaust) end while it doesn't in a 4 stroke - ANY 4 stroke including the injected ones which by far and away outstrip the 2 strokes for emissions standards since they DON't send raw oil out into the water the way 2 strokes do.

Any other claims to the contrary are frankly bullshenhyser designed to sell 2 strokes to someone who don't know any better - and I'm not havin any of it, coz I do know better.

Challenge - If the Eteks so good lets see it run without the oil, injected or otherwise!!!!.

FICHT technology was what bankrupted OMC plain n simple - poor technology (along with owner George Soros taking his bat n ball and going home).

When Etecs been around long enough to EARN a reputation for reliability - THEN maybe people will have a right to sing it's praises - but up to now all we are hearing is marketing hype IMHO.

Lets not forget it was only a couple years ago that Millions of loyal OMC fans got burnt with unwarranted motors after the collapse of OMC.

Along with them went hundreds of mom n pop boating businesses in this country who's only fault was choosing to stay with the sinking OMC corporate ship of state.

So - burnt cutomers and burnt dealers - no warrantys and no spare parts...and along comes Bombadier buys the company for pennies on the pound and starts out with a new product hoping to trade on the OMC goodwill of a couple generations of the customers and dealers it's just buried.

Aussie boaters have long memories, and any company hoping to ride on the coat tails of OMC will need more than slick sales talk to sucker most boaters again.

Fool me once - shame on you - fool me twice - shame on me!

So far what i'm reading being repeated by loyal dealers trained in sales speak on boating boards the world over about Etek is all the same - direct outta the company marketing manual - and if you ask me it's slicker n owl snot...but it's still just owl snot until proven otherwise and that takes time in the marketplace - not fancy sales speak - why not let the engines talk for themselves - with a track record that includes good service, warranty, reliability, parts availability etc.

Up to now all we are hearing is sales speak - and thats about as reliable as piss talk at the Dianella hotel on a Friday night!:rolleyes:

Sure they may be the creme de la creme of 2 strokes - but then again they might just turn out to be another Ficht disaster waiting in the wings...most Fichst blew after 1500 hours and VERY VERY FEW recreational outboards get anything more than 50 - 100 hours use a year.

For this reason some users might never experience the Ficht type nightmares because they just never do enough hours for the problem to show up within warranty period.

So - lets wait until a LOT of Eteks have over 1500 hours on em to see if indeed Bombadier has done something OMC couldn't do after re engineering Ficht about 10 times. :rolleyes:

Salesmen singing the praise of something with no track record really DohDohDohDohs me to tears - maybe Bombadier make great snow sleds, and next time I wanna boat in the snow I mght go look at a Bombadier product but Bombadier are in their first year of Marine engine manufacture with a totally new untried and unproven technology - I'm stuffed if I'd wanna be their beta testing guinea pig thanks very much.

Snow aint salty and dont rust things like the marine environment does - I'd be very surprised if Bombadier get it right first go...

Time may prove me wrong but I doubt it - and even if it does - it will still be a stinkin oil burner 2 stroke regadless - a 4 stroke it will never be and to suggest it might be as good or even better is just an outright lie IMHO designed to get some unsuspecting idiot to part with some harderned folding greenstuff for someones sales commission...

Theres one born every minute, which is what such sales peoples livelihoods depend upon - but I ain't one of em thanks very much.

4 stroke reigns supreme and always will.

I'll take experience over slick sales schpeel for public credibility any day bubble!

Cheers!

[bubble]

And here is a good place to start......

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pauldawson/

And by the way Bombardier have been manufacturing SeaDoo PWC's for years, so I guess they know a little about marine engine manufacturing. And I think some of the ex OMC staffers working for Bombardier would too.....

Be carefull what you ask for bubble - you just might get it!!!

Blowing the Etek emissions claims to bits!!!!

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:RpGAkcg6OpMJ:www.worldbank.org/html/fpd/esmap/pdfs/airquality_ch2.pdf+two+stroke+oil+emissions&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Its all about what they report on and what they DON'T!

HC's, No, Co2 & Co aren't all that comes out of a 2 stroke, much as Etek advocates would love to sell us on this furphy that theirs is an environmentally clean engine, it is IF YOU IGNORE THE 2 STROKE OIL PARTICULATE MATTER emissions, as the current standards CARB etc do!!!!

2 stroke equipped with a catalyst, for example, emittedjust 0.015 grams of particulate matter per kilometer in a recent test (table 6), but even this emission factor is many times greater than that of a comparable four-stroke

But data on emission factors for particulate matter must be interpreted with caution. No established methodology is accepted industry-wide for measuring particulate emissions from two-stroke engines. Nearly all the work carried out on two-stroke engine vehicles has focused on reducing hydrocarbons (or the sum of hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides), carbon monoxide, and visible smoke. No in-depth study has been conducted on particulate emissions.

Measurement of particulate matter emissions from two-stroke engines is difficult because oil droplets from lubricant added to gasoline on a pass-through basis account for a large fraction of particulate matter in the exhaust gas. Dependingon the dilution rate and the temperature to which the line downstream of the exhaust pipe (including the dilution tunnel) is heated, these droplets can condense before being collected on filterpaper. Oil samples condensed on filter papers can also be lost as a result of the passage of gas through the filter. A reliable and reproducible methodology for measuring particulate matter emissions from two-stroke engines should be developed and statistically significant data collected to enhance understanding of emissions from these vehicles and help policy makers select optimal measures for curbing emissions

Quite obviously theres a HELL of a LOT more to the Clean air reputation that Etek Claims that is NOT being told to the buying public in the publicity being released in order to garner sales!

Just measuring the standard HC, No, Co2 & Co emissions measures for 4 strokes which don't emit anywhere near the same particulate matter and then totally ignoring that particulate matter altogether when reporting on the 2 stroke doesn't give a good environmental cleanliness rating at all IMHO.

Why measure the exhaust gasses and ignore the oil particulate emissions when it's the oil particulate emissions we are talking about with these dirty stinking oil burning 2 strokes that are helping to destroy our precious freshwater environments?.

Just a little too convenient if you ask me!

I maintain my stance that for enclosed inland waters where oil particulate emissions are an issue - that ANY 2 stroke is NOT the most environmentally friendly choice for environmentally conscious breamers to make.

I'm not saying Etek technology doesnt have some place within the marine market - I'm saying they don't belong on enclosed inland freshwaters like our rivers and lakes due to excessive oil particulate emissions IMHO.

Ya just gotta love that research eh bubble? ;)

Cheers!

trouty:- Not a proven technology in my book - product is being beta tested on the public at full retail prices.

Maybe time will prove me wrong (but i don't believe it likely!).

What a difference a day makes. :D

Bubble:- And by the way Bombardier have been manufacturing SeaDoo PWC's for years, so I guess they know a little about marine engine manufacturing. And I think some of the ex OMC staffers working for Bombardier would too

Oh really?

Bombardier is recalling remote control boxes. These boxes may be labeled with OMC or Bombardier. It is a voluntary recall strongly encouraged by the US Coast Guard.

It consist of a voluntary safety recall of Remote Control Boxes, PN 176380 and 176381 that were manu and distributed between Jan 1, 2001 and Aug 1, 2003.

These remote controls boxes may have loose or improperly assembled fast idle lever components, which could potentially cause the outboard to stick in gear or in neutral or jam the throttle.

To check if yours is being recalled, the date code is printed on a tag adhered to the underside of the Fast Idle Lever. If the date code is

01-A-A1, or 01-A-1A, 01-H-1C or any sequence between 01-A-1A and 01-H-1C, check the bottom edge of the box for a white dot. If there is a white dot, then your remote has been repaired and is not involved in the recall. If your remote control box has a date code in this sequence and doesn't have a white dot, discontinue the use of your boat and the affected remote box. Contact your authorized Evin/John dealer. Any necessary repairs will be completed free of charge.

On another forum, it sounds as tho one boater has experienced a problem with his motor not coming out of gear and ramming the dock. It sounds like it may be attributable to this recall.

yup yup yup - I'm luvin this research! ;)

Cheers!

[Alex]

As to Beta testing on the public, as I said earlier it has been extensively tested prior to release and carries a 3 year warranty, seems the manufacturer has a lot of confidence.

There are cars manufacturers carrying the same 3 year/100000 km warranty. With some of them you don't take your car for the warranty repairs at all or very little, but with some - you take your car up to 24 times.

We all know what they are.

The point is the manufacturers sometimes offer three year warranty just because they want to sell, not because they have confidence in their product. Only time will tell. "Three year warranty" should not be a decisive point to buy or to claim the product is excellent. Only reputability, proven long history, quality are the main reasons.
The fact that Yamaha is having 40-50 % of Aus. market is not based on their warranty, isn't it?
Bombardier did not have any previous experiense in building overboards. The fact of buying OMC does not prove their ability to build the best 2 strokes today and meet the stringent emmissions as claimed (mind you, strangely, in a very short period of time). It may be that they meet emmissions requirements but at what cost? Will I care, if I buy Evinrude E-tec, that meets standards, but I get stranded in the middle of nowhere with their three year warranty and "no service" in 5 metres swell?
Cheers,
Alex

[fatman]

Just a few questions for the ETEC people;

- Once the 3 yr/ 300hrs is up and a service is due, what is involved and what sort of $$$ is involved ?

- Having had a service done, when is the next one due , another 3yrs/300 hrs?

- are any components seized up with corrosion over the 3 yrs covered in the warranty ?

FATMAN

[Tony]

Originally posted by trouty
Be carefull what you ask for bubble - you just might get it!!!

Blowing the Etek emissions claims to bits!!!!

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:RpGAkcg6OpMJ:www.worldbank.org/html/fpd/esmap/pdfs/airquality_ch2.pdf+two+stroke+oil+emissions&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Its all about what they report on and what they DON'T!

HC's, No, Co2 & Co aren't all that comes out of a 2 stroke, much as Etek advocates would love to sell us on this furphy that theirs is an environmentally clean engine, it is IF YOU IGNORE THE 2 STROKE OIL PARTICULATE MATTER emissions, as the current standards CARB etc do!!!!


Ya just gotta love that research eh bubble? ;)

Cheers!

Anyone smarter than myself, are marine engines made the same as two and three wheel motor bikes ? And would the tests and makeup of the MotorBIKE be as good as what is used in the Marine outboard engines. ?

All I could see was they talking about Motor Bikes not Boats ? :(

But please just a short quick to the point reply please, I do get lost in some of the big winded replies.:)

I have done some looking on Boating industries web site and if you look in search engine under EFI and Yammy and merc there are a few interesting things to read.:D

Environmental friendliness.

Especially for inland waterways (like the places we find bream and trout etc...lakes estuaries and so on).

Sure as I've said - IF theres a place for etek - it may well be on the open ocean, where MAYBE the effects of unburnt 2 cycle oil might not accululate abd become an environmental problem so quickly - eventually tho it will all add up and when the penguins and krill in the southern oceans start diueing - well that will spell the end of lots of life cycles on this planet.

Basically all 2 strokes are the same - there are differences with injected and no injected 2 stroke motors - but as far as oil particulate emissions go - well, they still put tcw 3 in at the front end and push some of it out the other end.

Now...

IF they used a biodegradeable vegetable based two cycle lubricatiing oil - then MAYBE the nevironmental effect wouldn't be so bad? (I.e one of the new synthetic oils?)...

Heck - if they made synthetic TCW3 from recycled fish n chip shop oil maybe the eteks would raise fish with their own chumline!;)

My beef is that the etek blurb about emissions completely ignores particulate matter emissions...

The oil condenses out during combustion as liquid droplets and is vented with the exhaust gas. The typical exhaust gas analyser used to give us the CRAB type emissions readings that Bombadier are using to try and say their OB's are cleaner than 4 strokes - ignores the fact that gas anaysers don't analyse liquids (oil droplets) hence a LARGE part of their emissions are totally ignored in the biased reporting frpom the Bombadier company.

Let em sell their OB's based on facts not sales hype - which os what people all over the net - who SELL eteks are cutting and pasting about how clean etek is.

Sell the engines - I don't care - but don't lie (by omission) to do it - just tell the WHOLE truth and let buyers choose what they want...

Eteks may well be around a long while, only time will tell - they may even have a real market - again, only time will tell.

In the interim - it would apppear to me their only saviour in the environmental stakes will be if they invent and insist upon use of an environemtally friendly biodegradeable vegetable based TCW 3 synthetic oil...

THEN maybe their environmental claims may have some REAL merit.

Cheers!

[bubble]

Tony, in my opinion that particular bit of research bears no relation to the current technology available in outboards.

Put aside the hype, marketing speak and techno-babble and the E-tec still meets the toughest 'marine' emission controls in the world. There are 4 strokes out there that don't. The secret is combustion after the ports have closed and the fuel burns cleanly emitting gas.

Oh yes, and there is an enviromentally friendly bio oil available if you want to use it. Bombardier market it under the Bio-lube brand.
4 strokes and 2 strokes comply with the same emission standards so it appears that 4 stroke emisions do not measure particulate matter either if this is the case. If you have to top up your 4 stroke oil between services where does this oil go....into the water.

I would suggest you do your own research or talk to people you know and trust about the technology that suits you as a boater or fisherman.
You may even end up with a carbie two-stroke. They are clean and still meet todays emmision controls.

Bubble.

[fatman]

Originally posted by fatman
Just a few questions for the ETEC people;

- Once the 3 yr/ 300hrs is up and a service is due, what is involved and what sort of $$$ is involved ?

- Having had a service done, when is the next one due , another 3yrs/300 hrs?

- are any components seized up with corrosion over the 3 yrs covered in the warranty ?

FATMAN

Still looking for an answer here as I am genuinely interested.

FATMAN

[Tony]

Fatman,

I will ask at my shop this weekend for you about the service cost at 300hours, I would assume ,plugs,filter,impeller,maybe oil . But only guessing mate til i talk to the dealer.

The dealer rang me the other day to tell me the new oil is in the XD 100 which uses 50% less than tcw3 oil.

Have had mine for just over 5 weeks now and can not fault it.:D

Not to get too pedantic about this, but false advertising to sucker people on something as important as the environment gives me the shytes...

Now - I've already shown that 2 stroke engines all emit particulate matter as drops of unburnt oil AND that the current claims for environmental cleanliness (the much vaunted CARB emissions standards) totally ignore liquid oil emissions (called particulate matter).

In order to confuse people and maintain the sales - we are being conned into believing that two stroke oil is all burned due to the new electronic injection technology when the inlet & exhaust ports are closed.

Well that might be all well n good - but consider this engineering fact which is inerscapable.

Two cycle engines - have big ends and mains bearings in their cranckcase.

Those bearings must be lubricated.

IF as claimed, all the TWC3 oil is burned clean in the cylinder due to the portds being closed at combustion - what lubricates those bearings in the crankcase?

The inescapeable fact of 2 cycle engines, is that it isn't just cylinder wall lubrication that keeps them going - it's the oil in suspension in the fuel & exhaust that keeps thiose bearings lubricated...becuase induction air is scavenged from the sump - and exhaust gasses are expelled thru the sump.

Thats how the oil gets into the sump to lubricate those bearings.

It may well be injected into the cylinder for delivery - BUT it IS exhausted thru the sump to lubricate those bearings...

Who knows - maybe the oils even injected direct onto those bearings as well - BUt the fact is the oil is in the crankcase at the same time the exhaust is being pushed thru it - and that oil is carried out with the exhaust into the water.

Oil in our water isn't a good thing, whichever way you wish to slice it - it is bad.

The test always is - could you bring yourself to willingly walk down a jetty to the end, unscrew a cap from a two stroke oil bottle, and POUR that neat oil into your favourite bream fishing river?

How on earth can anyone rationalise to themselves - that it's OK to pour that same oil into their two stroke engine tank - go for a riun down the river - come back, and the fuel and oil are gone?..

If it's an inescapable fact of 2 stroke technology that the oil goes thru the sump and out the back of the engine via the exhaust gas, why is that ANY different in environmental terms - to just walking down the jetty and tiopping it in neat?

If you were caught tipping it in the river neat - would you get charged with polluting by the swan river trust?

Why is it OK then to tip in in via the route of passing thru your 2 stroke OB first?

We have some pretty dumb laws etc in this country, and allowing 2 stroke engines on sensitive waterways like rivers lakes estuaries is just plain dumb given the stresses our rivers are already under.

We already have nutrient problems, salinity, diseases etc - all kiling our fish...as evidenced here on this site all too often.

Yet - we allow two stroke technology on these same waters?

I dont think it's appropriate IMHO.

Cheers!

[jimi]

Hmm, don't think you guys will ever agree on this stuff, but here is something different that would be cool if it ever made it into an outboard some day.

Honda has just released the second Hybrid electric car in Australia (the toyota prius is the first). They claim to get 5.2l/100km, which is pretty damn good.

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,8737517%255E21822,00.html

Love to see hybrid outboards one day. I imagine the petrol part would be great when you want to open it up, with the electric motor kicking in when you hit the speed limited parts of whatever water way you are on.

Obviously there are a lot more issues to solve for water based use, such as where to put all the batteries and how to make it water proof, but maybe one day we'll see these about.

Cheers
James.

Sooner than you think Jimi.

One big problem tho is net energy flows. While the new technology for hybrid cars exists already - the net energy flows are negative....so far.

What this means is - it takes more fossil fuel emissionsinto the atmosphere in coal burnt at Collie to produce the power to charge the batterys on the car (or produce the hydrogen gas), than the car would emit burning petrol to do the same mileage...

Hybrid fuel cars arent the total anser yet environmentally speaking- but HEY the Model t ford wasn't the most luxurious comfortable vehicle built either not long after the internal combustion engine was discovered/built it took another 10 years of development to get to where we are today - and who knows where alternate fuel cars will lead us in another 100 years?

We have to start somewhere and alternatives to fossil fuel HAVE to be developed.

We are already at "peak oil" (google search those two words for full explanation), and unless we tap an alternate energy source, we will have no choice but to go to war with every oil producing nation on earth like the Saudis and Iran etc etc if we wish to keep our oil based economys afloat.

With the rate the Americal oil based economy is collapsing (our $ has gone from trading at a low of 48 c a year or so ago to now 80's yesterday briefly against the US greenback...

That should give some idea of how BAD the US economy really is performing...and the reason is because it is a net energy importer and they have long ago used al the cheaply extractable oil in Texas etc...and they can't get what they need out of Alaska due to political reasons (National Parks) so they have no choice but to import.

We can't just keep relying on oil - there HAS to be another alternate energy source.

I have a feeling it will turn out to be from the domain of 'Time'.

Yes, when we conquer Time, Gravity & Magnetism forces, thru the use of my Time discovery M = Δ T equation - you'll see a whole new realm of vessel 9and car) propulsion engines - all operating on the free energy trapped / compressed within time.

Thats right 9 x 10 ^ 16 Joules per second of free energy = as much energy as the atom (MASS) has in nuclear power stations!

Probably Vessels will employ some sort of plasma wormhole induction drive sytem, is my best guess at present - (looking into my chrystal ball).

I'll probably be dead bye then - but my kids wiull likely one day live in the age of the Jetsons on TV when I was a kid growing up...
:rolleyes:

Good luck to them....you young kids with the brains will likely invent the propulsion drive systems I am talking of now...

Do a good job of it - and dont bugger it up now will ya - you hear!!! ;)

M = Δ T - There I've kept it simple for you all - now go invent an outboard that will run on that!!:D ;)

Cheers!

[Backfire]

It difficult to have a reasoned conversation with Trouty about, in this case, 2 strokes. When in several of the above blusters, it is clear he has no clue as to the actual detail functioning of most 2 strokes. It is obvious he lacks an understanding of things chemical, as in biodegradeable and combustionable. A disclamer of "IMHO" is supposed to be taken a some value, when in many cases, a statement may be devoid of most truth. Such as IMHO, the moon is green cheeze.

"becuase induction air is scavenged from the sump - and exhaust gasses are expelled thru the sump".
More humor than fact, Trouty. And how are those bearing lubed again?
I can only suggest a fact finding trip to ANY outboard dealership to finally understand how a 2 stroke really works. In the case of a real mystery engine, you will have to visit an Evinrude dealer to hear about the ability to run 5 hours or more without oil at 1200 RPM. NASAloy, what is it? My car uses a couple quarts of oil between changes, it ain't on the driveway, whered't go?
Backfire ;)

[Angry]

While this subject has at times got a little bogged down, Its also been extremely informative. I've learned a lot, and I've enjoyed it.
I would like to harp back to something bought up early in the piece, about the price of 2 and four strokes becoming more comparable.
while you certainly can get 2 strokes alot cheaper (like the yami CV's and the Merc lites?) it really is comparing apples to oranges.

Because of a stuffed back, some of my prerequisites for a new motor where elec start and PTT. Was very surprised to learn that going on local prices (newcastle area) it was only about 300 dollars differance between the fully featured 2 stroke brand and the equivilent size and featured 4 stoke (different brand). I'm not mentioning brand names cos I think its irrelevent to this discusion.

the prices are getting closer. and it won't be long before we see the phasing out of older technology 2 strokes.

I'll keep my carbied four stroke for now (cos I've got it) but must admit that lower maintenance costs on DI 2 strokes could swing me back that way at replacement time (a long way off at the moment, i hope.)

food for thought gentlemen, but not worth fighting over.

[Ajax]

Hi evryone, new to this forum but was interested in the 2 v 4 stroke debate because I am buying a 4 stroke with a bit of uncertainty beneath the positive exterior of a brave decision.

However this thread seems to be torn apart by a posting person that is soooo anti 2 stroke or morelikely has a beef with a sales rep in his past, that whilst his comments make me feel good as a new 4 stroke buyer, I cant help but feel that no one has realy defined the answer.

Could I ask anyone with practical know how this question please... "In my case I am buying a 60hp Johnson 4 stroke because it was offered at the same price as a Merc 3 cyl 2 stroke 60hp (not the Etechy gizmo), so does the price in my case make the 4 stroke a no brainer???"

I don't want to know about solving world hunger in the pollution stakes, just simply want to know if I made the right choice in a practical fishing/boating sense.

I bought a new Stacer Easyrider Bowrider Sports 475 with the Johny 60 4 stroke and only do inland saltwater bream & flatty fishing.

Cheers & thanks for any helpful thoughts!

[Stephen Wilson]

Trouty, Trouty, Trouty
Mate you had to have gone to the kelloggs corn flakes school of engineering ......... and to get your so called bit of research
from some moped site in tiawan where every 2 wheeled putt putt blows gallons of toxic smoke and god knows what else into the air . Well bugger me that is riveting stuff (im going to get me one of those motors and chuck it on the back of me new boat).i know the liberal party are looking for a new spindoctor, or maybe you could run for the position of minister for energy,the environment,Foreign affairs,Treassurer,Comunications ,gee with your knowledge of

1 Mechanics
2 Physics
3 Biology
4 Mathamatics
5 Electronics
not to mention you are a inventer

As they say bullDohDohDohDoh baffles brains.
So just stick to your 4 stroke and like you say to other people with views different to yours........
I think what bubble and other people are saying is there is alternatives to 4 strokes so let other people make there own minds up by doing there own research.Show me something bad about the E-TEC and then i might listen. Stop trying to push your views on everyone

I have 1 question Trouty that i have been wondering about for years that i think you can answer
What come first the chicken or the egg ???????:confused: :confused:

[John from IL]

That was an interesting google article, however its subject matter concerned 2-stroke, air-cooled, carbureted, wheel vehicles (motor bikes & three-wheelers likely). Hardly the same as a water-cooled direct injection outboard.

Did you know: The oils used in water cooled 2-strokes are completely different than air cooled 2-strokes. The lubrication requirements differ because of the actual running temp differences between the two engine types. And as I recall from running snow mobiles and an occassional chain saw, the air cooled oils were never ashless (particulate matter) - most of the outboard manufacturers oils are ashless.

- The quoted google article had a very high concern for using the wrong oils in the wheeled vehicle application. It gave me the impression many people may be recycling used 4-stroke crankcase oil in their 2-stroke motor bikes. Anyone else pick up on that point? Also noticed some of the data in that article dating back to 1993?? - Gee, that's about the time the the Evinrude engineers began their r&d on direct injection technology...

Did you know: That gasoline fully combusts at about 400 degrees F? That 2-stroke oil (for water-cooled engines) burns and fully combusts around 1000 degrees F? And that the solvents in the oil typically burn off by 650 degrees F?

Did you know: That the combustion chamber temps in E-TEC are much higher than 1000F and exhaust gas temps on a DI or E-TEC engine are in the vicinity of 1400 degrees F - any oil that survives the combustion event will be burned in the exhaust stream.

Here’s a comparison of the 50 E-TEC, vs the 50 Johnson 4-stroke exhaust emissions:
- 50 E-TEC figures are HC+Nox = 17.6 gr/kwhr and CO = 66.5 gr/kwhr.
- 50 4-stroke figures are HC+Nox = 15.8 gr/kwhr and CO = 235.27 gr/kwhr.

HC is Hydrocarbon, Nox is Oxides of Nitrogen and CO is Carbon Monoxide (the killer). This data can be found on the U.S. EPA web-site. Frankly, after comparing the certified data there, after carbureted 2-stroke outboards, the "dirtiest" engines are 25 (or so) horsepower and smaller 4-stroke outboard, and believe it or not, the smaller the dirtier!

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how those Yanmar diesel outboards fair in terms of emissions? We never see those little guys here in the US.

-John

[Ajax]

Hey guys, I am not sure that I am fitting into this forum too well as I am not technical enought to talk the sort of stuff that some of you technically blessed people can.

However for what it is worth, I posted an entry a few before this one asking if I made the right decision in buying a Johnson 4 stroke 60 which sorta fell on deaf ears. Anyway, since then I have taken delivery of the new boat and have proudly clocked up 4 hours on the clock.

I have to report that the motor was unbelievable!!! No noise on idle (I mean no noise, had to check it was runing). The ride was very smooth and when it hit 4000rpm it gave an impressive motor noise that sounded like tigers purr that just got better and better as I ran it up to 4500. I am not to push it to the 5000 range until 10 hours use. And to not smell the oil fumes was great too. But the biggest buzz for me is getting home at 2am and kicking the new girl over for a flush out and not one neighbourly complaint, it was that quite!

I have the greatest respect for 2 strokes but have to say the 4 stroke Johnson has won my heart. Sorry I cant talk about the techno stuff, Im just an average guy that loves fishing and knows not much about mechanics.

Cheers everyone,
Ajax

[Angry]

to ease your mind Ajax, you've made a good buy. If it does what you want and your happy to pay the price then your already in front. Almost all new outboards these days are reliable, and if you look after it. it will look after you.
there are pro's and cons for all sides
The 4 stroke v modern 2 stroke argument is like the ford v holden or the old Merc v OMC argument. there is no end to it and frankly at the end of the day its pretty much academic. Regrdless of the product, some one out there will have a friend who knew someone who was let down by BRAND X and therefore they all suck. And it goes the other way as well, I even heard of a guy who was happy with Chrysler outboard, and thats got to be crap (VTIC)
Most people will stick with a product they have good experiances with and stay away from products that dissatisfied them.

buy the best you can afford and live with your decision.

Here's cheers to all us average guys

[Ajax]

Thanks Angry, you are right and all the debates over 4 v 2 strokes will not change the fact that at the end of the day everyone will naturally defend their purchase decision.

To the bloke with the fettish for 4 strokes and raved on about the pollution of 2 strokes killing the water ways, stick this one in your pipe and smoke it......My new 4 stroke blew a puff of smoke last Sunday when I started it, sure it did not blow any more but it proves that your arguments are based on theory and it also proves you do not own one, so own up, you either have no outboard ownership experience at all or you actually own a 2 stroke and think that everyone is killing the waters based on your old heap of clapped out smokin, stinkin, smelly and dribling 2 stroke. You should clean your act up and stop polluting the water I play in.

Cheers everyone,
Ajax :p

I go away fishing for 3 weeks and the weavels have got into the metaphoric outboard flour while I was away. :rolleyes:

When in several of the above blusters, it is clear he has no clue as to the actual detail functioning of most 2 strokes.

Actually I have a marine engineering qualification as a matter of fact - that means I know all about the functioning of both 2 & 4 cycle marine gasoline (petrol) engines as well as 2 & 4 cycle marine diesel engines, (along with a few other things as well like bilge systems and so on).

That along with a few other quals is what lets me skipper a paying passenger vessel with plebs like you lot on it for hire or reward while chartering. :)

The Johnston 4 stroke OB purchased will be a great engine - it's made by Suzuki - so it should be a bewt. ;)

As for clean Etecs - forget it. As long as they have bearings on the mains and crank lubricated by oil in suspension in the petrol supply scavenged from the sump or the exhaust gas stream passaged thru the sump, they will ALWAYS be polluters of our inland waterways - period.

Don't matter WHAT 2 cycle engine - your moped, weed whacker, or your 2 cycle OB engine - if you pour lubricating TCW3 engine oil in the fuel tank - then i'm afraid it condenses out as a liquid oil droplet in the Exhaust.

If it didn't, the engine would sieze because it's bearings (not to mention rings) wouldn't be getting lubricated.

As I've shown - the USA environment CARB emissions analysys are based upon exhaust gas analysis which DOESN'T account for liquid output (oil droplets / particulate matter) in the exhaust stream.

Oil goes in the tank of the 2 cycle OB and comes out the exhaust.

Wanna prove it to yourself if your an etek fan?

Get a clean white sheet of blotting paper, run the etek at midrange revs for a short burst while on the muffs (so as to not overheat it with prolonged running above idle while on reduced wtare flow of the hose/muffs) and hold the clean white paper behind the exhaust hub when you give the throttle a blip.

Ya paper will be covered in oil droplets - thats what ends up in our inland waterways killing birds fish and other aquatic organisms vital to the survival of aquatic macro invertebrates - the building blocks of the aquatic food chain.

The more boat & OB engine sales staff try to convince you otherwise - the deeper they dig their hole - the same hole they will one day have to climb out of.

Face it - the age ot the 2 stroke is DEAD.

Would you walk down the jetty into the Swan river and pour a litre of tcw3 oil into the river?......

What makes any sane person who knows even the most rudimentary basics of OB engines believe that when they pour that same oil in their fuel tank think some of it doesn't end up in the water?

As for not owning a 4 stroke OB - well - I actually own a yr 2000 model 50Hp Merc 4 stroke....(Powerhead built and supplied to Brunswick corp eg Merc, by Yamaha!).

It would be irresponsible to suggest any 2 strokes should be allowed to operate in inland waters IMHO.

Breammasters and the Australian bream circuit should be considerig the implications of allowing use of 2 cycle engines in inland closed waterways/ estuaries for comps IMHO.
(They should be seen to be setting the example, by leadership).

Many of our local rivers have bars at the mouth which CAN stay closed for some years and accumulation of TCW3 oils is a real problem for these types of closed systems, not to mention lakes.

I well recall a water analysis sample of freshwater from remote Lake Jasper back in my CALM days that clearly showed traces of oil and lead from water skiing permitted on the lake in years past.

Thats a lake 40 ft deep with 3 miles long & 2 miles wide of fresh potable (read drinkable) water, that even with it's remote location - tough 4wd only access, already shows signs of being polluted from past use by ski boats, with 2 cycle OB engines.

These environments are too fragile to be despoiled in this way - if you lot want to enjoy good freshwater angling in them in years to come.

Its that simple.

I've said it before - MAYBE Etek 2 cycle technologuy has a place for use in the ocean - however inland closed freshwaters IMHO ISN'T the place to be using them or any other 2 cycle OB engine, period.

Cheers!

[Backfire]

Rave on Trouty, you may hold a pilot license, but you still do not know more than the basics 2 stroke/4 stroke tech. Every time you spout ignorance it is more apparant. Just for an example, if there
was any truth in what you say, Lake X in Florida, USA, has been the Mercury test lake for over 50 years and as such would be the most polluted lake on earth. Mercury has run engines 24 hours a day for years, burned oil ratios from 16/1 to 100/1. They have burned millions of gallons of fuel and oil in this small closed lake. This is the site where all their race equipment (not known for economy) is tuned and tested and consumer products are developed. If ever an example of gross over use and potential failure of the eco-system was to take place, this is the place. With more studies than a person can absorb, more money spent than the average king's treasury, nobody can show damage to anything. That would put Scientific Testing 1, Trouty O. Everyone may have opinion, it may just not count for much when it runs counter to the facts.
Backfire ;)

For OB engine salesmen trying to peddle there wares here is that I DO know a little more than the average bear - when it comes to marine engines.

but you still do not know more than the basics 2 stroke/4 stroke tech

Theres been several attempts to try and hoodwink people into believing that eteks are "cleaner" than 4 strokes, while ignoring liquid oil emissions thru the exhaust into the water.

USA's EPA CARB readings are conducted with an exhaust GAS analyser...it simply DOESN'T analyse the liquid oil emissions of 2 stroke engines, which is WHY Eteks results on the surface initially APPEAR to the untrained ey to be so good...

Problem is half the story isn't told - the bit about oil emissions just isn't mentioned and plenty wish I'd keep my trap shut about it - usually those who are selling the polluting things for a living.
:rolleyes:

Theres been suggestions that because the fuels injected after the intake and exhaust ports are closed over, there is no oil makes it past the combustion process to pollute the water.

UNTRUE

The big ends and mains bearings (as well as gudgeons) are lubricated with oil from the fuel...if it didn't get oil into the crankcase the engine would sieze. Its that simple.

Once the oils in the cranckcase to do it's lubrication job, it MUST thus end up in the water.

It's also been suggested that due 5to the temp of burn all the oil is turned to ash.

Again - UNTRUE

Without lubrication - the engine would sieze. Ash doesnt lubricate.

Another untruth.

The truth is that the new Eteks are polluters of our waterways with oil emissions in the exhaust gases, period. They may not be as bad as some of the earlier less technologically advanced 2 strokes - but they non the less still do pollute - period.

If they didn't lubricate their crancase bearings and rings with oil from the fuel - then maybe they wouldn;'t be so bad for the environement - but then they wouldn't run at all they would sieze period.

If a 2 stroke runs - it pollutes the water - thats an inescapable fact of 2 stroke engines due to the way they are lubricated.

No matter how much you wave the magic wand - no one can make it any different.

The pollution affects our waterways and fisherys.

Breamers rely on healthy waterways for a good fishery.

Why do you think Walpoles a better bream Fishery than the swan - it has a more healthy water, less fishing poressure and less pollution...

Here people sit with the Swan river getting huge algael blooms every year - with attendanrt fish mass mortality events and yet those same people want to ignore their own contribution to the problems with their use of 2 stroke engines in the Swan river.

It beggars belief frankly.

If it were me I'd BAN 2 strokes from bream comps eventually if breamers are serious about preserving their resource as they claim to be with banning of netting and other issues.

Either your for the rivers and their fish or your not - if you have a 2 stroke on the back of your boat - your a part of the problem not a part of the solution.

Can't make it any more black n white than that!

Sponsors of the site who sell 2 stroke OB's - hey I'm sorry - thats just the way it is - if the rivers end up dead and theres no fish - you'll end up selling no boats and no outboards in the long run so better to get with the program NOW than after it's too late.

At the moment despite the technological advances of etek, 4 stroke remains the answer of inland & freshwaters. Peddle your eteks in the ocean if you must.

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

You crack me up big time, I am sure you are mostly right but I am curious, why the passion to the extent that you risk being boring and how do you afford the time to write such long stories???

I will admit that I do not have a fancy piece of paper like you, but as true as I write this, I have had many occassions where engineers have had no idea on a practical matter and I have had to help them resolve the most simplest of tasks. I actually know a marine engineer who once when we went fishing in his 2 stroke left the bung plugs out and began to panic as the boat was sinking (hehehehehehe) It still cracks me up to this day, anyway I calmly told him to kick her in the guts and once on the plane the water will run out and then cut the motor and I'll plug the bung holes. He looked at me with stupid look before doing as I said. He talked about this for days after and was embarressed that his qualifications led him to nothing but a state of panic. So good onya for the qualification but that does not make you any better or brighter than the next guy.

If nothing else you are entertaining and whilst I am still at the fingerling stage I will respect your longer standing on this forum, keep up the crap and as all you engineers learnt "If you cant dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullDohDohDohDoh" your doin well!

Cheers,
Ajax

Good question Ajax.

I'm passionate about our environment, I did work for CALM for 8 years doing my best to be "dedicated to the cause" of protecting our environment.

I've made a small living out of fishing / guiding in our rivers for a good number of years now.

I live alongside the Backwood river - I can look at whats left of it out my window as I type.

I have kids - one of whom hopes to one day earn his living as a fishing guide on these very same rivers... (He's in yr 12 of an outdoor marine education course now - looking to join the workforce in the fishing / guiding industry next year, hopefully to work with me at some stage before eventually taking over my charter licenses etc and making his own way in life.)

It gives me a "stake" or "vested interest" in the future health of our rivers / estuaries. Why do I battle the beaurecrats who want to TAKE away his future rights to fish in the Blackwood thru the marine parks planning process so passionately?

Because they are trying to take away my sons future is why - and when it comes to fighting for ones kids future - I intend to take no prisoners..

With regard to Eteks - well - the "passion" has to do again with history.

Hundreds of successful mom & pop outboard / boating businesses around this nation (and in fact world wide) went to the wall when the OMC Johnston Evinrude empire collapsed over failure of FICHT technology only a handfull of years ago (1999) - thru no fault of their own.

They were left high and dry with new engines with no spare parts and no warrantys, totally worthless junk...

Along comes Canadian Bombadier co - buys up the company for next to nuthin and NOW wants all the world to "trust them" with another new marvel ETEK technology???.

Then in order to get the marketing humming along on an untried unproven new technology - they start to flog the engines - by telling "lies of omission" about how environmentally clean they are. :rolleyes:

This is the same co who bought Evinrude Johnston and left all the owners of old FICHT product without warrantiies or spare parts on brand new engines... "just too bad sucker" was the approach to those loyal customers & dealers when they bought the company!!.

Basically - I wouldn't trust the pr!cks as far as I could throw them, and I think Aussies and other boaters around the world would be fools in the extreme to do so - until such time as the Etek technology is thoroughly proven in the marketplace.

Theres been enough lies and bad feelings left in the stomachs of Evinrude and Johnston brand name owners in recent years not to need to start the NEW line of Eteks off wth a campaign based on lies of ommission IMHO.

Bombadier should know better IMHO.

IF ETEK is as good as we are being led to believe - then it will EARN its right of place in the marine market, one engine sale at a time like every one else did and just like the early Evinrudes and Johnstons, did - by being reliable.

Theres no shortcuts back from the Debacle that was the collapse of OMC corporation that left so many loyal Johnston & Evinrude owners & dealerships high and dry with worthless outboards...back in 1999/ 2000.

IF Bombadier HAD done the right thing and stuck bye those customers with warranties and spare parts availability thru the OMC collapse when they bought the company for next to nothing - then I wouldn't be as hard on them as I am today.

They had a choice to honor warranties or not and to provide spare parts or not and they chose not too - they chose to screw over the OB buying public for a quick buck..

They shouldn't be surprised when the OB buying public now chooses to screw them right back!!!!.

Back in 1969 as a 10 year old - the very first OB motor starter chord I ever pulled was a 5.5 hp Johnston....

Bombadier helped sully the reputation of a ONCE great brand name in marine history - they ain't going to get away with it cheap - decisions they took when they bought the company, to leave the loyal customer & dealer base high and dry will haunt them in the marine market place for generations to come.

That kid a mine starting out in the marine industry?...wouldn't buy a bombadier product as long as his azzhole points to the ground while I'm still around.

The only way Bombadier will ever find their way BACK into the marine market place after what they did to honest hard working mom n pop OB dealers all over Australia (and the rest of the globe) & all the loyal customers of OMC product - is by generational change.

In a another generation or two - when all those people they screwed over are dead n gone....THEN maybe then - they will have EARNED the right to be considered a serious player in the marine market industry again - they ain't going to get there with a sales campaign full of lies of omission and slicker than owl snot while I'm still left around to blow the goddamn whistle on the buggers!

I think Bombadier as a company - don't give a round rats touche about their customers - or they woulda looked after better the loyal band of customers and dealers during the OMC collapse and subsequent purchase bye Bombadier.

When they chose to screw both groups over for a cheap quid - they did themselves irrepairable public image damage IMHO.

They certainly COULD have done it better - why should the share price and profits of Bombadier be totally a result of the BILLIONS of $ that outboard owners and dealers around the world LOST when OMC collapsed?

Bombadier had the choice at the time to lessen cutomers and dealers pain, and they chose not too - what right do they now have to come along and expect the marine industry to support them in any way.

You see Bombadier hopes to trade on the generations of GOODWILL that Evinrude and Johnston Brandnames engender in the boat buying public, yet when they bought the c0ompany OMC who owned those brandnames - the very forst thing they did - was screw over ebvery loyal customer and dealer who had new engines left in stock by not honoring warranties nor providing spare parts.

They don't deserve ANY of the goodwill of the former Evinrude or Johnston brand names they bought for nuthin because the screwed boaters over for a quick profit.

I hope Bombadier get screwed right back over bye the very same boaters and dealer base they screwed over when they bought OMC corporation for pennies on the pound!!!.

That would be what I call poetic justice!

FICHT & ETEK - is there any real difference? Just another marine industry debacle looking for somewhere to happen IMHO.

Those who get left holding worthless etek junk when the inevitable collapse comes will be just as badly hurt as those left holding worthless OMC priduct when they collapsed IMHO.

The more people who choose NOT to buy Bomb product as a result of my scriblings - the less number of poor sops to get screwed over next time around, is the way I look at it.

Theres no shortcuts in the marine industry - Bombadier will have to learn that the hard way.

Was I one of the boaters left holding worthless OMC product?

Answers NO - but i saw boating bulletin boards the world over filled with fearfull people who had just bought new OMC product and who were left to hang out to dry by Bombadier...not to mention all the dealers likewise left up the creek without a paddle!.

I used to like my local OB dealer, and he and his business went to the wall over the OMC collapse thru no fault of his own!.

Bombadier COULD have chosen to do things better when it came to looking after their cutomers and dealers when they bought OMC. Those seagulls will come home to roost! ;)

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

You need to enjoy life a little more, You responded with three main personal issues and it would seem that your passion in this forum is fueled by matters that are outside of the debate of 2 stroke v 4 stroke.

I joined this forum because I wanted to get a fair opinion on whether or not I made the right choice of a 4 stroke because it was new territory for me.

Instead of good fisho's tales and advice what I saw was your passion in putting every red herring up ranging from pollution to multi-corporate politics. This made it very difficult to get a laymans feel for the real forum topic and became very frustrating.

I think you are too close to your issues to make generalisations which on a practical level seem way out of kilta.

In the interest of this forum Ill get back on track with the topic... My new 4 stroke is a very nice piece of kit and the fuel economy is excellent. Regarding 4 v 2 I would say that the answer is either depending on situation.

The easy way to determine which one is the right choice (having thought about it more) is to ask yourself two questions. They are 1) Is speed an important factor for my use?
2) Is money an issue for my purchase?

Because it is very obvious that the 2 strokes are much gruntier than the 4's so if speed is critical then a 2 stroke is the go. However, if speed is not critical then the next question should be asked as to whether or not affordability is an issue. If it is than still go the 2 stroke, if not then definitely go the 4 stroke. In the event that both 2 & 4 stroke level out at the same price then speed becomes the main determining factor.

Ya all have a nice day,

Ajax :cool:

[Cloud 9]

just a reply to what trouty said about etec 2strokes

with etecs the fuel is the only thing that gets injected into the cylinder. the oil is injected into the wear point in the bottom end of the motor there is zero smoke no mater what you try with the engine,they only use about 250ml per 20hours or so.
if a four stroke is on anyones shopping list id still buy a ETEC you cant beat 2 stroke performance,and low weight, fuel econ is better on the etec as well. its a win win for ETEC.

[Cloud 9]

trouty
ficht injection was stolen technology for BMW thats what sunk OMC.

ficht is deferent from ETEC. ficht is fuel injection bolted onto old naturaly asperated engines, (fuel/oil injected together )

ETEC is next generation technology and the engines are based on an aircraft engine the spec for ETEC is that they get 80HP per cylinder then govern them back to requiered HP
75 and 90HP 3 cylinder ETEC's are 240HP engines governed by the onboard computer, they recon that these engines will rev to 10,500 RPM with the stops removed. thats how they intend for these things to last the time. if the engines not working hard it will last a long time, like 200Kw 4cylinder car is going to stuff up quicker than a 200Kw V8 thats the though thats gone into these new ETEC's
even looking at the internal specs on these engines you can understand why they have faith in ETEC , pistins rods crank are all the same spec as the 175HP johno, same water pump. V4 gearbox, these are all heavy duty bits for 40HP to 90HP.
by 2006 they will all be ETEC johnos in the 2stroke range.

there is a 90HP ETEC being evaluated by Wayne Kempe in QLD Fishing monthly at the moment, its on the back of his new boat, castaway 2.

[Ajax]

Cloud 9, I have no axe to grind either way and feel that both 4 and 2 stroke have a place in the market today.

I was curious about you saying that the ETEC is more economical than the 4's. When you say this are you referring to a marginal difference only? because my new 4 stroke is unbelievable with fuel efficiency and gives me 50% more running time than my old 1990 model Merc 2stroke.

There is no doubt the 2's have more stick behind them but it seems almost incredible to think they were much more efficient on the fuel over that of the 4 strokes.

Cheers,
Ajax

[tonyp]

Ajax,

this is a bit taken off a thread about Two-strokes not E-tecs,but if you want the rest of the thread it was to long to post in here . But will give you the link if you want it. Just some figures by whom he is I do not know.
---------------------------------

4/7/04 6:51:00 PM Submitted by 2 stroke ron (67.201.70.127) from VIRGINIA says For Mark & anyone who wants to know
Total Emissions gr./kw hr. Evinrude E-TEC 90HP 2 STROKE vs Honda 90 & Yahama 90 4 Stroke . gm/kw hr of HC+NOx - E-TEC 16.8 , Honda 16.82 , Yahama 16.84. gr/kw hr of CO- E-TEC 69.8 , Honda 187.9 , Yahama 211.8. Fuel on 180C Blue wave boat- at idle - E-TEC 13.8MPG, Yahama7.7MPG-- 1000RPM E-TEC12.7,Yahama8.1, 3000RPM- E-TEC 7.6, Yahama7.1, 5000RPM E-TEC 6.4, Yahama6.4MPG. Sound level 50HP E-TEC vsYahama 50HP 4 Stroke. Quieter at idle at cruise & WOT. Fuel E-Tec 50HP at idle 39.9MPG,Yahama 11.9MPG. 1000RPM e-TEC 26.6, Yahama 10.8. 3000RPM E-TEC 7.9, Yahama 5.7. WOT E-TEC 6.9MPG, Yahama 8.8MPG. Speed not listed but I bet E-TEC was faster at WOT. All tests should be made at speed and not RPM.Some day they will realize that. 2 Stroke Ron

[Ajax]

Thanks Tony, I would be suspicous of these figures as they are recorded at idle and I am sure a whole lot changes under load. I actually are not too mechanically minded and would not be confident enough to debate this. I am sure these days the differences are marginal and it simply boils down to which model you like and for personal taste and needs more so then anything else. All I know is that my new 4 stroke Johno is amazing on the fuel consumption and runs on the sniff of an oily rag.

Cheers,
Ajax

Cloud 9

by 2006 they will all be ETEC johnos in the 2stroke range

Maybe your right - but in a news release in BIN (Boat industry News magazine) late in 2003 - Bombadier claimed that Evinrude would be their 2 stroke engine line with Etec - and Johnston would remain their 4 stroke engine line! (at the present their 4 strokes are currently actually suzuki 4 strokes painted in Johnson livery colors!).

As far as injection of oil straight into the wear points - you are missing a fundamental aspect of 2 stroke technology.

The cranckcase of ANY 2 stroke engine isn't sealed from the exhaust - the air is inducted thru the cranckcase and the exhaust is expelled thru the cranckcase via the ports in the cylinder walls.

2 strokes don't have a sealed sump like a 4stroke does to contain and recycle the oil used for lubrication.

The cylinder walls have 2 ports in them, one port for induction of air (in the case of etek, and the induction of oil laden fuel air mix in standard 2 strokes) and one port for the expulsion of exhaust gasses. A 4 stroke would achieve this thru use of it's head and inlet / exhaust valves/ohead cam, not via the sump as a 2 stroke does.

This is the reason 2 strokes are lighter and more reliable for marine use with less moving parts!

This ingress of air for combustion process and then the egress of the resultant exhaust gas in a 2 stroke - then goes out the hub of the prop into the water along with the exhaust gasses.

If you inject oil into that cranckcase - then some of it must get expelled with the exhaust gas into the water, since the oil keeps getting injected, and more is added to top up the tank on the engine for injection at each fuel up stop or as required and theres nothing to keep the injected oil in the cranckcase with the air passing thru and exhaust gasses also passing thru.

Wheres this oil go?

It's not combusted?

Then it's exhausted...into the water plain n simple.

If it's a vegetable based bio degradeable oil then no problemo - I wouldn't be against eteks use in inland waterways.

If it's a polluting mineral based lubricating oil - then it's a different kettle of fish, our inland waterways are already under enough stress from pollution, elevated water temps, excess nutrients, algal blooms, fish mass mortalities and so on, they DON'T need any additional pollution from 2 strokes IMHO.

No one can deny Etek technology may be a great technological advance in 2 strokes, and I've already suggested many times that they probably will be great engines for use in the ocean due to their favourable power to weight ratio and the gains that allows in boatbuilding design.

I still maintain that we would be better off without them in our inland waterways.

I still maintain that it's "false advertising" to claim they are cleaner than an equivalent 4 stroke when talking only about exhaust gas analysis of emissions that totally gnores the liquid oil emissions from those engines.

Basically it IS lieing by omission - telling only half the truth in order to decieve consumers on environmental issues.

Let em extoll all the benefits of etek all they like, the bit where I draw the line is when thay make FALSE statements about their 4 stroke oppositions product, based on only telling half the truth about their own product.

If they want to play those games, I'm more than happy to trip them up.

At the end of the day if we want our kids and our kids kids to keep on breaming in our inland waterways we need to phase out 2 stroke OB's with their polluting oil emissions, as a start - maybe one day 4 strokes will also have to goand it will end up electric only waters - who knows,but if we don't start soon - it will all come to a head sooner than later.

Personally - I 'd like to think my kids will be able to catch bream in the Blackwood when they are my age. The way things are going with pollution, pumping the underground water, netting, marine park no fishing zones in the Hardy Inlet, Algal Blooms, salt from the wheatbelt, and so on - it's pretty unlikely they will be able to, and use of oil polluting 2 stroke OB's is only hastening that process.

I figure breamers if anyone should be at the forefront of protecting out future fishery resource. It's called leading by example.

Cheers!

[Cloud 9]

i think you are missing the point here trouty, these engines be it ETEC or 4stroke all have to pass the same test that the EU set out ( European Union ) europe has the most strict guidlines for any manufaturer to meet before they can sell their wares. America is following there lead. a test is a test it cant be fugged.
you also asume that 2 stroke oil is non combustible. i have a lot of aquaintences in the boating industry, both on the boat building side and the engine side as well . I'm not a technition but I here lots from both sides of the fence so to speak, and i ask a hole crap load of questions from the people in the know .
all the info i have on the ETEC is from the head guys at Bomderier and and from machinics attached to them. i was also ivolved with water testing the first ETEC 90Hp in Australia.the stats on paper at the moment are amazing , the warranty is impressive.300hr or 3Years and NO serviceing, but they still would like to have a look at the 100hr and 200hr mark at no cost, or so im told.
the hole base of the debate was 4 Stroke V 2 Stroke, MY Honest opinion is that if you want a 4stroke because you troll at idle all day thats possibly the way to go or if you are in two minds about which 1 to get id get the 2stroke , there are lots of for and againsts, but the ones that get my attention are weight and perfomance, next maybe fuel, i don't usually worry about fuel because if you cant afford you don't have it.
have compared 4's and 2stroke on the same hull.4 stroke was quieter at idle but struggled to get the boat on the plain . the top end speed was a bit slower but wot there was minamal noise deference. for the cost of the 4 strokes arround today id buy a ETEC very closely priced.

but at the end of the day theres always going to be someone who can find fault in somthing, or somone who has deferent needs or requirements from an OB.

Trouty you and I need to get a beer buddy, i think were two deferent sides of the coin, ( Both have deferent veiws )

Di Hydrogen Monoxide!!

You can quote the European and American emissions standrads until your blue in ther face- the fact is these tests are both conducted with an exhaust GAS analyser, which totally ignores the output of LIQUID oil thru the prop hub inthe case of the Etek 2 cycle engine figures quotyed - only HALF the story is being told a deliberate lie by omission.

Now back to DHMO ;)

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
* Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
* Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
* Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
* Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
* Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

* as an industrial solvent and coolant.
* in nuclear power plants.
* in the production of styrofoam.
* as a fire retardant.
* in many forms of cruel animal research.
* in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
* as an additive in certain junk-foods and other food products.

I understand that a recent chemical composition analysis found DHMO in our city water supply! I've heard that if you're exposed to it, you can wash your hands for ten minutes and still not be rid of all the DHMO.

Get the Full Story here: http://www.dhmo.org/
And please -- do all that you can to spread the word about DHMO.

Ohhh yeah, it's in beer as well, but what the heck Cloud 9 I'd still drink a couple with ya - whattaya say? :D

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty,

I am begining to understand your point of view and think you do have a lot of knowledge on the subject. For what it is worth I reckon the problem you have is that in stating your views on anti 2 stroke so hard you have got most people off side. lets face it approx 90% of OB owners have 2 strokes and don't want to hear someone telling them they are polluting maniacs! or something along those lines.

Re the 4 stroke power situation mine is a Johno 60 pushing a 500Kg rig plus an additional average of 210Kg people weight. My motor gets on the plane very well at around 5 seconds on half throttle and max's out at 40MPH at 5500rpm. Appart from skiing I can not see where I need any more speed and in my case the donk was offered at the same price point as a standard Mariner 2 stroke.

What is surprising, and will be surprising to the avid 2 stroke supporters on this forum is that evry time I am at the boat ramp I get at least 1 but mostly 2-3 people come up and say that they are very impressed with how quite the motor is and just last weekend I had the honour of being the only one out of half a dozen fisho's in tinies without a smoking motor at start and idle before taking off. The others noticed this and made some positive comments.

Now I am not anti 2stroke but I have to admit the more I use my 4s the more I am liking it.

Cheers all,
Ajax

[Cloud 9]

where r you trouty im on the gold coast/beenleigh/ QLD
you got tooooo much spare time on your hands, you need an electric boat.:D :D :D
no fallout so to speak.

re For what it is worth I reckon the problem you have is that in stating your views on anti 2 stroke so hard you have got most people off side. lets face it approx 90% of OB owners have 2 strokes and don't want to hear someone telling them they are polluting maniacs!

I hear ya Ajax, however,

I've always been proud to post what I believe is "the truth" no matter how "unpopular" it might make me... I've been popular and it aint all it's cracked up to be - if to be popular you have to tell people what they want to hear rather than what you personally believe to be the truth, then to hell with it IMHO.

I'd sooner people 'respect' me as someone who 'calls em as they see em' than some apologist who's opinion is for sale to the highest bidder (bin there dun that). It's ONE of the reasons I dont bother with sponsorships.

I take a great many unpopular stances on a great range of subjects, and it always fails to win friends or influence people, but that goes with the territory.

Let truth be your shield, thats why i'm so difficult to debate / argue with - when i get my teeth into an issiue where truth is on my side, I won't let go - I'm like a terrier...I'll shake it until I break it!:D

Yes a great many folks have 2 strokes and truthfullyI've owned a few myself. If thats all you have - then thats what you have to use.

Still doesn't make it the best solution tho for people contemplating a new OB purchase- my advice will always be whatever I truthfully believe will be best for them and the environment.

It'd be "interesting to know what the Bream comps "official policy" is with regard to future use of 2 strokes in comps?.

I've referred to that exact question a couple times now in the hope organisers would pick up the issue and run with it.

Probably it hasn't been an issue until now and it'd be a lot easier if it never became an issue which is probably why my comments have been gnored thus far.

BUT.

Breamers and the comps are probably supposed to be leading by example.

In environemental stakes at least - how is it that we can insist someone stops commercial netting to ssave the bream while at the sa,me time being part of the pollution problem causing downturnin bream recruitment numbers in that same river with our 2 strokes? it hypocritical really..and just ONE of the reasons bream organiusers should probably think about biting the bullet and aiming to move toward 4 stroke only comps in say 5 yrears or something ans a long term policy goal.

Of course you can't stop people using the OB they have now - but IF members knew what the official policy was goin to be 5 years hence they could bear that in mind in their OB purchasing decisions betwixt now & then.

To bury our heads and hope the problem just goes away is plain silly - the mass mortalities in the swan are our wake up call that all is not well with our rivers health - and while I'm in favour of restocking, it alone isn't the only be all answer if 2 stroke oils helping to kill off the natural recruitment and stocked juveniles.

It's a BIG issue that the industry is hoping will go away, just like govt is hoping pollution of our waterways and power water shortages etc will likewise go away.

The bad news is these things don't just go away unless we give em a helping hand - and purchase deciusions being made NOW will influence the amount of tcw3 two stroke oil that go into our river for probably the next 20 years.

Better that people make the right OB buying choices now if we want to see the improvements in 20 years time in the rivers health.

Anyway - it's been done to death....but it was fun hile it lasted!:D

Cheers!

[fishmania]

interesting that outboard manufacturers say how much more economical four strokes are than two strokes but if you read the comparisions at certain rev ranges there is very little difference ie around the 3500-4000 range sure if they are full throtle or at hump speed there is a large difference but I believe they use conveniant statistics combined with extra weight extra services four strokes become a luxury for quieter running .there is no doubt the modern twostroke are much smoother and more economical than those of the past but the time is coming where we need to stop poluting our inland waterways which will be the final demise of two strokes. my 2bobs worth FISHMANIA

a boating board yet, where a 4stroke versus 2 stroke debates doesn't go to at least 20 pages plus!

I reckon Warren knows this!;) When things are a little quiet - a 4 stroke Versus 2 stroke thread will get em all fired up every time!
:D ;)

Sheesh - this threads tame, I've seen some where people threaten to come around with baseball bats for some attitudinal readjustement!. :rolleyes:

I'd say this threads got a ways to go yet! ;)

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Fishmania, I started out with a balanced preference for 2's & 4's but now that I own a 4 I can say absolutely that the 4 is more fuel efficient. My brother bought a Merc a couple of Months ago and paid extra for the more technologically advanced system and even he says that whilst the merc has more get up and go, he would have prefered to of bought a 4 stroke like mine.

No matter what the stats say or what the glossy brochure pitches at the end of the day you cant beat having one in hand to try in practice.

Trouty, you sound like a grumpy bastard but I think your views are ahead of time and dare I admit it, you have won me over.

Lets keep our waters clean and start educating the two stroke brumby's that smoke and oil up our playground.

Cheers, Ajax the reformed 2 stroker!

[Backfire]

From Soundings Dailey E News
Bombardier takes E-TEC up to 250 hp

STUART, Fla. — Bombardier Recreational Products Tuesday unveiled its line of big — 200-, 225- and 250-hp — Evinrude E-TEC direct-injection 2-stroke outboards at a press preview at the Ralph Evinrude Test Center here.

BRP expects to roll out a saltwater edition of the big-horsepower V-6 E-TECs; a freshwater version targeted for pontoon, deck and aluminum fishing boats; and high-output models of the 200 and 225 for tournament bass and walleye anglers by November — in time for the 2005 model year, said Karl Sandstrom, product manager.

BRP introduced the first of its E-TEC engines last fall. They were two-cylinder 40-, 50- and 60-hp and three-cylinder 75- and 90-hp models. Still to come are E-TEC outboards in 9.9, 15, 25, 30, 100, 135, 150 and 175 hp.

“It’s going to be a complete engine lineup,” says Sandstrom. Despite BRP’s December sale to an investment group that includes members of the Bombardier family, the E-TEC rollout remains on schedule, says Roch Lambert, executive vice president for sales, marketing and product development. Most of the line should be out by summer 2006, he said.

Bombardier is touting its E-TEC 2-stroke technology as more than able to challenge head-on its principal outboard competition — 4-stroke technology. It says E-TEC is cleaner, lighter, more-efficient, lower-maintenance and as powerful as any existing technology, including 4-stroke.

The engine-maker says E-TECs require no scheduled maintenance for three years or 300 recreational hours, including gearcase lube.

“Many, many times we’ve heard, ‘It’s a 4-stroke world,’ ” says Lambert. “More than 50 percent [of outboard s] are not 4-stroke.” He expects to woo those 2-stroke devotees and a share of the 4-stroke world as well to E-TEC.

“We’ve done our homework on this thing,” he says. “We think it’s a pretty darned good mousetrap.”

— Jim Flannery
jflan983@aol.com

Backfire ;) Clean up those 4 strokes lads!

Wrong!

Cheers!:D

[Ajax]

It says E-TEC is cleaner, lighter, more-efficient, lower-maintenance and as powerful as any existing technology, including 4-stroke.

The problem with this statement is that it seems all points in the sentence compare to the 4 stroke however it is an old marketing trick from way back and still catches a lot of people out to this very day!

You see, the actual comparison to the 4 stroke is from the word "and" which only states what we already know which is 2 strokes are as or if not more powerful than a 4 stroke, thats granted. However the reference to "cleaner, lighter, more-efficient, lower maintenance" is actually referenced against other 2 strokes but arranged in the sentence such that you are tricked into linking it all into the same context.

Cheers
Ajax

wascally canuks will stop at nuthin to flog us dumb ozzies a 2 stroke Bombadier!:rolleyes:

Have they no mercy? :p

he he he!

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Trouty, do you know if it is worth while using premium unleaded in a 4 stroke??? I have been using it as someone said it helps prevent valve burn-out but as I don't understand the mechanical aspects like someone of your knowledge I am not sure if it was poor advice.

Cheers,
Ajax

[Leethal]

Have followed this thread and my thoughts on the future of two strokes are similar to Trouty's (even though i have a 2-banger myself, i'll be getting a 4-stroke next)

I have one problem with what trouty has said

"The cranckcase of ANY 2 stroke engine isn't sealed from the exhaust - the air is inducted thru the cranckcase and the exhaust is expelled thru the cranckcase via the ports in the cylinder walls."

The air does come through the crankcase but it exits out of the exhaust ports (most have 3 inlet and exhaust ports in the cylinder walls not 1 of each) through the exhaust and propellor hub. Not the crankcase.

My problem with two-strokes is that when the piston is on the way down (exhaust stroke) the inlet and exhaust ports are both exposed and there is nothing to stop oil from the crankcase going straight through the inlet and sucked out the exhaust ports without being burnt properly.

Now I understand that with the injection methods used in the e-tec, the amount of oil used is obviously less and the whole package is much more efficient than old 2-strokes but it's still basically the same theory of operation with all of the same problems (and advantages, being it's bloody reliable and easy to service).

When it comes time to get a new OB, I'll get a 4-stroke just because you can't convince me that all of the oil that gets poured into the engine gets burnt up into a nice eco-friendly ash or whatever. Some of that oil has to end up coming staight out the exhaust in pretty much the same condition as it went into the engine (Probably a little filthier)

With all that said. The e-tec beats the old 2-strokes by a mile.
And if they run for 300 hours without a service... Great!!

Ultimately I'd still like to be able to remove old oil and dispose of it and not just hope it's all being burnt up (burning the lube oil isn't real good anyway is it??)

I'm no chemist...

But compression ratio determines how much octane rating you need.

Older 4 strokes used higher compression rations ~ (10:1) and used high octane fuel (super grade) 98 octane rating?, so they wouldn't pre ignite (ping) and burn the valve seat before it closed via the camshaft timing.

Supposedly the new 4 strokes have lower compression ratio's (~ 8:1) and run fune on unleaded (96 or 94 octane?).

Older 4 strokes that needed super grade also had lead in the fuel for upper cylinder lubrication and to stop knocking etc...

Supposedly the new unleaded don't need this due to the lower compression ratio.

Premium might be OK for some of the first 4 strokes out after super petrol was done away with but shouldn't be neded otherwise with the new generation 4 strokes.

You can buy an additive thats sposed to be aded to premium to replace the lead for upper cyclinder lube....in old 4 strokes.

I use this when fueling up my old 1940's TEA 20 Fergy tractor, and I also throw a handfull of round lead fishing sinkers in it's fuel tank...to roll around and add minute amount of lead to the fuel! ;)

As for Lethals question, the plumbing of the 2 stroke depends on where the exhaust goes -whether thru the cranckcase to the exhaust thru hub or whether plumbed there direct from the port/s in the cylinder wall.

With eteks they claim the oil is injected into the cranckcase then transfered to the cylinder via a transfer port, however that works...

:rolleyes:

If it was biodegradeable oil then fair enough i guess eteks might be Ok and they do make a biodegradeable oil for them - it's just whether owners choose to PAY the premium price for the bio oil -or just buy cheap tcw3 at K Mart made from mineral oil. :rolleyes:

The less carbon we put into our atmosphere if we don't want to kill off reefs like Ningaloo and the GBR with bleaching de to global warming - the better! The less lubricating oil we burn - the less hydrocarbons we emit into the atmosphere.

That said etecs actual hydrocarbon emissions are superior to most 4 strokes in terms of being low. The oil emissions in liquid form into the water is my only bug bear and bio oil basically solves that one - so Etecs MAY be the way of the future.

But not my future- I can't stand the stink and noise of 2 strokes!
:D

Theres nuthin as bad as a reformed smoker..er 2stroker!;) :p

Cheers!

[Backfire]

It would be more meaningful discussion if those you who have not personally witnessed the running of these new engines, to do so. Noise? Bring your decibel meter to compare or believe these who would test in your absence. Smoke?, you must be joking, that's right, you have not run these. Biodegradeable oil or not, outboard oil is ment to be, designed to be, engineered for the purpose of, to be burned cleanly-ashless. This would be at odds with 4 stroke oil which is designed to with stand great temperature and pressure and not break down because it must be used again and again. For instance, average use on on one of these engines is like 60 hours on three quarts of oil. Factor what is burned, and there is some out the exhaust, just as the is on 4 strokes, but is it enough to make any material difference in ecology? The answer is no, and even the "dirty" engines of the past have proved that the exhaust is rapidly biodegraded by nature with no long term or short term effects to the enviroment.
So we have two viable products, more differences in prices, weights, and performance.
Backfire ;)

even the "dirty" engines of the past have proved that the exhaust is rapidly biodegraded by nature with no long term or short term effects to the enviroment.

Thats a brave position to take!
:rolleyes:

Cheers!

[Ajax]

Thanks Trouty appreciate the info.

Hey are you playing tag or what! You start off being the worlds most bull headed supporter for 4 strokes and considered all two strokes regardless of technology as the poluting monsters of the sea. Now you say that Etec's are probably the way of the future.

I think you stir the pot to draw debate.......hehehehe I love it! If I was not joking about being a reformed 2 stroker I would be giving you an earfull right now!

What other sport in the world can you have such serious debate with full division splitting the hardcore 2 & 4 strokers yet still get out on the playground and for the majority cooperate with mateship style regardless of whether you have a 2 or 4.

GOTTA LOVE FISH'N

Have a top weekend... Ajax

Now you say that Etec's are probably the way of the future.

I'd say IF they use the bio oil, etc then due to their light weight they may have a place in boating into the future- but only the marketplace wil decide that.

What I personally reckon will happen - is the marketplace will decide on 4 strokes and due to resale considerations people will shy away from 2 strokes due to not being able to give the boat away later if it has a 2 strke on it (i.e. having to accept a MUCH lower price for it!).

Case in point - the Johnston Evinrudes of 1999/2000 with Ficht..

Basically these OB's have zero resale value - they are a power head blowup looking for somewhere to happen!.

I see quite a few otherwise great boats for sale that remain for sale year in and year out - the price steadily dropping because - whoever islooking at buying them basically has to factor in dumping the OB and repowering with a new one into the purchase price.

The owner of the boat is trying to get a fair value for the boat in 'going condition' but no one wants it...IF they have to "pay anything" for the existing outboards.

Heres an example...

http://www.boatlocator.com.au/detail.php?mode=11027&p=k

Been for sale for probably 2 years, and dropping in price @ $10 grand a year, because of the Ficht ram outboards.

I think eventually the marketplace will decide the fate of Etek with their hip pockets, and that decision will very much depend on a couple factors, not least of which will be the reilability of the OB's themselves AND the service of the delears supplying them looking after their clients.

IF they get those two right, then very liely Etek might be around a long while but again - IF they don't get it right or if Etek gets swamped in a headlong rush by the marketplace into 4 strokes - then Etek just might not be around in another 10 years.

It's the marketplace that will decide at the end of the day - certainly not whatever I happen to think or say.;)

Cheers!

[matchangler]

hey guys i really appriciate your mathmatical workins out on all these engines.
but some of you are forgetting one thing the etec sounds an awesome donk if you have a sponsor but to the mere mortal on the street who has to fund it out of his own pocket a 75 evinrude etec costs $13,000 i,ll stick with a yammy i think............

[Ajax]

Yeah MatchAngler you are right. The only reason I bought a 4 stroke was because I bought a new boat and as a package it was far easier to negotiate a great price. If I were simply updating the donk alone I dont think I could afford a 4 or Etec on its own.

Also if I had not bought a 4 stroke, I would be pushn the 2's as better. At the end of the day what ever we have is what we are always going to promote as the one to have! I am however going to say that having used the 4 for a few months now I wouldnt go back to a 2 unless I needed the extra grunt for skiing etc.

Cheers and hope everyone is well!

Ajax

know of anyone whose had a 4 stroke that would willingly go back to a 2 stroke...

That said - price is still a big consideration in favor of the two strokes.

Cheers!

[Tony]

Originally posted by matchangler
hey guys i really appriciate your mathmatical workins out on all these engines.
but some of you are forgetting one thing the etec sounds an awesome donk if you have a sponsor but to the mere mortal on the street who has to fund it out of his own pocket a 75 evinrude etec costs $13,000 i,ll stick with a yammy i think............

Tim , Where you live mate,
I know my dealer will sell you one and ship it to you for less than that mate. Sounds a bit steep :( 75hp E-tec that is.

[Tony]

Originally posted by trouty
know of anyone whose had a 4 stroke that would willingly go back to a 2 stroke...

That said - price is still a big consideration in favor of the two strokes.

Cheers!

Trouty me mate :) Now you know me . I went from a Yammy 4/stroke and jumped into a 75 E-tec and am loveing it. Have done just over 40 hours on mine now and UUUMMMmmmmmmmm love it. Sounds sooo sweeet screaming down the dam at 42 Mph. I have given up takeing a spare 20 litre drum of fuel to my weekends away now cause i just do not need it. :)
And yes I can still troll for hours with Bass lures.

always one iin every crowd, as they say!;)

Reminds me a the jke about the 80 year old shows up at Happy haven, askin for the kinkiest gal they got - and holding a condom in one hand and two black jellybeans & a pair of ear muffs in the other.

The madam said - look - the condom is no worries- but we've never had anyone come looking for kinky sex with two black jellybeans & a pair of ear muffs before:confused:, If you don't mind my askin whattaya gunna use em for?

Waaaallll, says the ol timer - I been at this jiggery pokery game a heck of a long time, he said - I wear the ear muffs over my ears and jam the two jellybeans up my nostrils, coz at my age, if theres two things I just can't stand - it's the sound of screamin women and the smell a burnin rubber!

My only question Tony - is does that etek come with it's own Jellybeans and ear muffs? :D ;) :p

Cheers!

[matchangler]

im 99% sure tony thats wat it cost,i live in perth w.a,and that donk is on the latest full boar boat to hit town thats how i no, but im sure if dror is lookin at this post he can tell you exactly....... cheers

[bubble]

Trouty, unless you are 80 and plan on doin the business in the boat the only muffs you need are to flush and the only beans you will need are used as snacks......mmm a 2 stroke that is quiet and clean.....now there is a novel idea.

[Cloud 9]

Here's to trouty budy.
grab the latest QFM and read the 9 page liftout
it is everything i said about the E-TEC's and more .
for all your smarts and enviromental aspects these engines beat the 4's hands down.:D :D :D

Cheers Cloud 9

[Ajax]

Cloud 9, now come on, to make a statement that etec propogander determines that they beat 4's hands down is actually a very silly statement.

I actually have a lot of respect for both the etec and 4 strokes of which the latter I currently own. There are some practical differences that make one better then the other depending on the intended use.

I think your statement has been baited by Trouty and if you really think about it, its out of perspective.

Cheers and hey no hard feelings! In my opinion we are all a great bunch of fishos that simply have differing points of view.

Ajax....:D

[Cloud 9]

Gaday ajax.

i'm not making silly statements just reading the brouchure with all the stats they compeared e-tec's to yamy's mercs and suzy's 4's and performance was better . fuel was better right across the board accept for at WOT and even then there was only fanny hair between them. read the info your self there is 9 page lift out in most boating and fishing mags this month, in australia and NZ.

i am probably biased but have directly compeared 90hp merc 2's that i have to 90E-TEC and the E-TEC craps on my merc for speed fuel econ and smokelessness. i get 2 to 2.2 klm's per litre fuel the E-TEC gets just over 3 Klm per litre.
speed - my 4.8 Galeforce get 42 kts
E-TEC on 5.5 Galeforce gets 45kts
and that was when the E-TEC was brand new, it gets slitly better now. 4's don't even come close.

but trouty and i given it to each other since i became a member.
2 different opinions clashing head on.:D :D :D

Cheers Cloud 9

[Ajax]

Cloud9, didnt mean to be so flippent, my comment is based on the fact that there is not a lot in it and so much so that depending on actual use both 4 and 2 stroke could be seen as the better one to decide upon.

Media reports are always biased in one form or another and the mere fact that they depend on either sponsorship, advertisement or direct marketing contracts for survival will always see some element of skewing regardless of how innocent it may have been intended.

I originally had no idea on the worthyness of a 4 stroke but now realise that like cars of today, it is a personal choice rather than a reliability or performance choice as both are bloody good in their own right, especially these days just that in some circumstances of use one will shine over the other.

Hows the fishing going lately?

Cheers
Ajax

[Cloud 9]

fishing been a bit slow cant tow the big boat so bass fishing a bit with the tinny at sommerset dam. been breamin couple times for a few on rubbers.can't wait for new ute to tow big boat, be here soon
with reguard to e-tec can get 75 for $10700 from Gold coast dealer, through boat builder.
Cheres Cloud 9